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My dog bit me, need opinions.

24K views 130 replies 52 participants last post by  valreegrl 
#1 ·
For the past year or so, Heidi has showed that she does not like for us to put our faces close to her, such as hugging her. Unfortunately my daughter and I have a tendency to be hands on with the dogs, burying our faces in their fur, that sort of thing. The following is what occurred last night:

Heidi was laying on the couch. I was sitting on the floor below her. I was stroking her shoulder and head, just generally giving her affection. She suddenly lunged and bit my face in several places. It did draw blood and looks ugly, although it isn't serious. I ran to the bathroom to see how bad it was and my husband yelled at Heidi. Afterward Heidi did not seem particularly repentant, although she was back to her gentle self.

Here is my take on this: I was doing something that I know from previous experience makes Heidi uncomfortable, which isn't a good reason for her to bite, but was still foolish and dangerous on my part. I was sitting below her in a position that can hardly be called an "alpha position." I think this was an expression of dominance from Heidi and a reminder that I need to, once again, practice leadership skills with her.

I would like your more experienced views on this. What is your take on what was going through Heidi's mind? Am I taking this too lightly? What should have been my reaction at the time this occurred?
 
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#103 ·
Originally Posted By: BridgetFor the past year or so, Heidi has showed that she does not like for us to put our faces close to her, such as hugging her. Unfortunately my daughter and I have a tendency to be hands on with the dogs, burying our faces in their fur, that sort of thing. The following is what occurred last night:

Heidi was laying on the couch. I was sitting on the floor below her. I was stroking her shoulder and head, just generally giving her affection. She suddenly lunged and bit my face in several places. It did draw blood and looks ugly, although it isn't serious. I ran to the bathroom to see how bad it was and my husband yelled at Heidi. Afterward Heidi did not seem particularly repentant, although she was back to her gentle self.

Here is my take on this: I was doing something that I know from previous experience makes Heidi uncomfortable, which isn't a good reason for her to bite, but was still foolish and dangerous on my part. I was sitting below her in a position that can hardly be called an "alpha position." I think this was an expression of dominance from Heidi and a reminder that I need to, once again, practice leadership skills with her.

I would like your more experienced views on this. What is your take on what was going through Heidi's mind? Am I taking this too lightly? What should have been my reaction at the time this occurred?
first of all, why is the dog on the couch and you on the floor?? that would be an issue right there, the dog seeing you as a subordinate. NO DOGS ON THE FURNITURE, BIIIG NO NO! it seems by your story that this dog has been allowed to do as she pleases, am i right? this would be a huge issue and i dont see this as being aggressive, i would call it dominant dog behavior. simple answer..NILIF
 
#104 ·
Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangI disagree with the no couch rule.

The dog likes to sit on the couch. You need to exert more authority over the dog (not physical). What better way then to CONTROL ( not eliminate) one of the dogs pleasures?
You're right (of course). What I raised was the issue of consistency -- the idea that Heidi, who seems to have a lot going on, was now supposed to understand the intricacies of when she is allowed on the couch as if by osmosis.

Osmosis is good in some things (such as water filtration), but training a dog with behavioral issues? Eh, I'm not so sure. What you've explained is TRAINING the dog using the sofa. Another concept entirely.

I let my dogs on my bed. The rule is, they have to ask and receive permission. Asking is resting his chin on the bed for Celo and Meri stands on her hind paws against the bed. If I say ok, then they're allowed up. If not, then no. And everyone gets off when I say "off." No grumbling, no rearranging themselves hoping I won't notice, no crawling under the covers. Off means off.

I don't believe the whole goofy thing that elevation means dogs don't respect us. This seems to be another one of those rules that came out of the idea that our dogs are basically wolves and our dogs see us as furless wolves that walk weird. It makes sense that the more powerful members of a wolf pack sleep higher, so that they can more easily see what lies beyond the den area to protect the pack. We just don't have the same concerns here. I'm certain that my dogs aren't worried about other predators approaching our lair. Maybe the occasional thunderstorm. But that's it.

In my experience, consistent rules are easier to follow. They're easier for family members and guests to follow.

I think that troubled dogs do well with consistent expectations and routine. TRAINING your dog a new programme (a new set of rules for the sofa) falls under that.
 
#105 ·
I have a client whose dog has sent them BOTH to the hospital twice over the last ten years. The first bite I told them everything to do and they didn't.I walked the dog five days a week. I got that dog around the corner and told her life had just gotten different for her with me. I think my words were "you can bite them but you are not going to bite me you little (*&^%" I applied NILF to that dog from that day forward. She has never given me a problem-ever.
as we all know I have a VERY aggressive GSD. Paige has wanted to attack a stranger her whole life.She is the scariest GSD ever and I would bet everything I owned that she wouldn't bite me.If you want to keep that dog I would be like a drill sargent to her. I tell people all the time that when you change your stance they wake up like "oh no she is serious." I get a certain tone in my voice and my dogs knows not to mess with me.
I would be very very very very careful as well, especially if there are kids.That dog would NEVER be on a couch or bed again.
 
#106 ·
I'm coming to this thread way late but I do have a few things to add.

First, although the vet visit didn't show anything, there is a distinct possibility that the newly-seen aggression could be a result of epilepsy. I've seen this firsthand. An epileptic seizure is not necessarily grand mal (thrashing and drooling and all that). An epileptic seizure, in a dog, can manifest in sudden aggressive bursts and then the dog often goes right back to normal without showing any signs that they even realize what they've done. I had an Australian shepherd that went through this. She would go from normal to attack back to normal in a matter of 30 seconds.

I'm not trying to make excuses, just offering another possibility. BUT whatever the cause, the first thing that needs to be done is to make everyone safe. A dog that bites its owner (or in my opinion, anyone without a high level of provocation) has a poorly developed bite inhibition. Bite inhibition is something dogs learn, usually as puppies. Older dogs who bite can be taught a higher level of bite inhibition but it has to be done consistently and by every single person who interacts with that dog. It's a lot of responsibility - however, I've done it and I've helped others do it.

My 12 year old chow bit me not long after I got her (she was 14 months old). I immediately put her on restriction. No getting on furniture, no treats or petting or attention without earning it, no going through doorways or up stairs in front of me, every bit of food had to be earned (by doing attention or obedience moves or tricks - I literally fed her by hand and she got nothing out of a dish for weeks). Anytime I couldn't watch her, she was confined in an ex-pen (in the living room, so she saw the other dogs being free to interact while she had to stay cooped up). No freedom outdoors - everything on leash - basically she got NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING, for free.

Following an NILIF program is a wonderful step toward teaching a dog that they are not entitled to be the "boss" without resorting to strong-arm tactics. You get inside the head, instead of just forcing the body. But it has to be followed stringently in order to truly work, and too many people fudge it and then complain when their dog continues to boss them around. So if you're going to do it, do it fully. Commit to it.

With the OP's dog, I would also recommend teaching the dog to wear a muzzle. This is a preventative measure that helps provide safety to those who may have to deal with her, but it also teaches the dog that even if they DO try to bite, it's not going to work. Dogs often continue to snap or nip or bite because they've found that it works for them. Nervous? Snap at the person and the person moves away. Feeling crowded or irritated? Nip the person and the person leaves. Biting WORKS because none of us are going to stay there and continue to get bit! By wearing a muzzle, you can do what you need to do and not retreat from her if she does try to snap.

I'm not a big believer in giving my dogs the right to have a lot of personal space. Now, that doesn't mean that I bug my dogs incessantly, or do things that they don't like just because I want to do them. But all of my dogs are taught to accept being handled - EVERY part of their body being handled - and touched and tugged and scratched. Feet are handled. Ears and fur are tugged. I stick my fingers in their mouths and ears and armpits. I open their mouths and check their teeth. I tug lightly on tails. I keep my voice very matter-of-fact and add in a "eht eht" if they start to react, and then praise/reward when they don't. Of course I don't start all of this at once and expect miracles - I do a little bit, and another time a little bit, and gradually work up to more invasive things. I'm not trying to torture my dogs, but I do want them to be acceptable of touching that is not intended to create intense pain. Dogs should be able to handle some twinges or hair pulling or pinches without reacting by biting, but it HAS TO BE TAUGHT.

Now, all this being said, I think it's important that the OP keeps in mind that this is an older dog, with some arthritis that is likely going to make this dog more reactive than the typical dog with arthritis. I wouldn't do anything to aggravate that condition and expect the dog to not react at this point. But all the little things - the NILIF, the confinement, and working on bite inhibition - those should all be done if the dog is going to remain with a family and be at all trustworthy.

CK - your comments on "her brain broke" with your dog - that's kind of what epilepsy is like. The dog's brain doesn't function in a normal, predictable manner and you just can't fix that. Some meds may help for a while, but when a dog seizes they are no longer cognizant of your presence, and biting happens very easily. Sorry to hear that you had a dog that went through such a rough experience, and that your family had to take the brunt of it.

Best of luck to the OP, and you might contact your vet and mention the epilepsy. If you watch your dog, and see times when she suddenly "zones out" for a few seconds, that could be an epileptic seizure. There ARE meds that might help but she needs to be diagnosed first. And there are also meds that help with dogs who have nervous problems. "Doggie downers" might help you with the training, giving her enough control that the training can sink in more easily. I would discuss more with your vet and see what they think.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
 
#107 ·
Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestFirst, although the vet visit didn't show anything, there is a distinct possibility that the newly-seen aggression could be a result of epilepsy. I've seen this firsthand. An epileptic seizure is not necessarily grand mal (thrashing and drooling and all that). An epileptic seizure, in a dog, can manifest in sudden aggressive bursts and then the dog often goes right back to normal without showing any signs that they even realize what they've done. Melanie and the gang in Alaska
I had a cocker/sheltie mix when I was a kid that developed epilepsy and became aggressive. The agression started and was there for months, then he actually had a noticeable siezure, that is when he was diagnosed. He was about 7 years old when this developed, before he was a happy dog, then he would just snap from time to time.
 
#108 ·
My dog has bitten me once before when he was sleeping. I'm not sure why, but the thing to keep in mind isvthat dogs are animals, and even though they aren't wild beasts they still react on an instinctual basis.
 
#111 ·
This is completely true. What often happens is people completely devote their lives to their dogs, training them, loving them, treating them like another member of the family.

This humanizing of certain emotions that are not possible in dogs is what leads to people looking for a cause that might not be there.

While I agree, dogs will often lash out if in pain or due to some other misunderstanding, there will be times that some dogs do something completely horrid to their owners because...well...they are simply dogs. It's something that you can't take personally.
 
#109 ·
As expected this has been an interesting thread. The OP is lucky it was her and not a freind or guest, better check your homeowners policy. I will not put up with a dog biting for any reason, however, this was not a bite by my definition. A GSD bites with tremendous force using the full mouth, things break, die or are pemanantly disfigured. I know a trainer who got cornered once in a small room with no way out, the dog was in full attack mode and she said at that moment she knew she was gonna die, lucky for one of her dogs broke through it crate to protect her, both dogs never saw another sunrise, very sad. She has been training mostly GSDs for 20 yrs in obediance, Gaurd/attack [cant remember spelling of actual word] police, search and rescue ect. I've seen her handle alot of rough situations. I am going to say something that she told me and I also heard from a horse trainer I know who is a man. It is probably not going be well recieved here by some and I know there are exceptions.
Women tend to use more emotion than men, thus they like to think animal have these emotions. I went to a seminar on horse training, something like Non-Resistance training. The guy conducting the seminar [I shall not name] was doing all this touchy, feely, kissy stuff and the audiance was loving it. Wow I can treat my horse like a person or I can act like a horse and he will be my best buddy and love me uncondionally!!! Of the 2000+ people there @ least 1900 were women. I was standing next to one of this guys staff and mentioned this and he said that is what they geared for, women love it and they spend mostr of the "horse dollars". The guy next to him, another trainer said " Great, 2000 feel good wanna be horse trainers off a 2hr show." The staff member said yep and probably 1000 trips to the E.R!
A women a few miles from me owned 5 Enlish Bull Terriers and she subscribed to this type of behaviour. I knew her through a neighbor. These dogs were treated as equals, no gaurd or aggressive training. She had complaints about her dogs barking or chasing people but assured all that they were harmless. They were right up to the day they killed a women, ripping off one her arms and a leg and then killed an elderly man who came to her rescue.
The truth is that these are animals, we do not know to the extent they have feelings or think/reason. We do know that most animals see humans as above them in the food chain, call it fear or respect. This along with our cunning alows us to manipulate their behavior to our needs/wants. I believe it is dangerous to drop this curtain between us and them. You can train animals without using brute force and without dropping this natural barrier. Dogs that have been pals for years will get in a knock down bloody fight, horses regulary kick and bite each other regaurdless of who is alpha. Is this how you want to interact with your pet?!!!
 
#116 ·
I posted yesterday about what I had decided about Heidi. As the aggression had not happened again, my conclusion was that mostly it was an attitude problem with me and not noting signs that she was feeling well. Ironically, when I got home from work yesterday, my husband informed me that Heidi lunged and attempted to bite the neighbor kid, who takes care of her when we are gone. Tyler was just sitting on the couch playing a video game, not interacting with her at all. So, I have been pouring through the responses to this post again. Today, we begin serious NILIF and drill sargeant behavior, as that seems to be the recurring theme. It is truly a matter of life and death now, as I can't keep Heidi if she is a dangerous dog. I honestly thought it was just me she had a problem with, but the stakes have now been raised. Wish us luck.
 
#117 ·
Good luck, IllamasQuest always has great information and advice, I would go back through her response. She obviously has been there and was able to rein in the situation. Keep us posted and i will be sending good thoughts your way as you work through these issues!! It must be scary....
 
#118 ·
Hi Bridget, I am really sorry about what happened. Truth is we can obssess over the incident and really never know what went on inside their heads. I have been going over what happened to us over and over again. This board is great and people can give you lots of different insight from different perspectives. It is really hard to be injured by our four legged companions, emotionally and phisically. I had a GSD for 14 years, Thor, he never bit me, but if he was in a lot of pain he would yelp and then put his mouth on my hand very gently. He had severe arthritis in his old age and I basically carried his back end so he could go potty. We managed his pain with meds since his mind was all there and he was still full of life in him. But he had sensitive areas but never bit anyone when touched. He was a grumpy old man at the end but never agressive towards us. I am glad you got her checked out. The part about going for the kid when he was playing games is scary. I did have a friend who had a Chow that at 6 years old started having seizures which they didn't know at the time, but the dog would not recognize them for a moment and would snap at them. It was heartbreaking and they had to PTS because he was unpredictable. I am no expert, and I hope that your training does take care of her issues but also consider that she could have had a seizure.
I hope you healed well and I am so sorry this happened to you.
 
#119 ·
An old thread, but I have seen several things said that I don't see as making much sense.

People have said biting is communication. It certainly is, but it is inappropriate and unacceptable communication.

Body language like avoidance, flight, a whine, a yelp, a gentle mouthing are all also communication and are acceptable.

The question has been asked how would a person handle a dog who decides to bite when handling private parts.

Personally I teach the dog biting is not an appropriate form of communication and not a proper or successful response. It is done throughout the dog's life in all kinds of situations and by reinforcing proper responses through play and other interaction such as during desensitizing for touching anywhere, puling thorns from paws etc. and not allowing improper ones to be reinforced by me, or self reinforced by success.

If my dog was to bite me the very last thing I would do is pull back and allow that behavior to succeed. And it's about the only situation I would apply physical positive punishment. Aggression is not allowed nor tolerated.

The exception would be a dog as described above who has such a medical issue that the dog was truly out of it's mind and did not even recognize me.

That kind of bond and trust has allowed for me to do things like stitch up a large gash in my dog's back when there was no way to get to a vet with her laying across my lap with a standard needle and thread and alcohol without getting bitten. She could avoid, yelp, whine, even grab my arm gently but no more.

It allowed me to pick her up and handle her when she jumped a fence and tore two foot long gashes in her belly when it caught the sharp ends of the wire on the top of the fence.

Of my two rescues, after a year one of them is about there, and I trust not to bite me or a vet or a child under almost any circumstance. She actually looks to me for help when she has a painful thorn in her paw for example and does not bite or mouth when I pull it out, though she will yelp.

The other, much more fearful, nervy and prone to fear aggression, who has lunged aggressively at both children and dogs the first month I had her, is coming along well and should get there in a year or two at most.

When a dog doesn't like me touching or handling an area, to me that is simply another opportunity to condition a proper response, and to me it is important to do so for my safety, others safety and my dogs safety and well being.
 
#120 ·
OK I have read through the retire threads and I can not believe this dog is not created 24 hours and let out only to eat and go outside on a leash to play and potty then back in. until you decide what to do. If I was reading all the post from the OP and weeding out the trash correctly. This dog has done this 3 times or more? Seriously! this is not the dogs problem this is the owners fault for not being a responable trainer. She even admits that she has not kept on the training. The OP has no one to blame but her. The OP said she can't keep the dog "if" she is a dangerous dog. ARE you kidding me? The GSD IS a dangerous dog and can NOT be trusted. DEAL WITH IT!!!
 
#121 ·
1 dogs are not people ( and thus don't emote the same way)
2 a pain reaction from a dog will result in a snap/nip, not a BITE
3 excluding a"medical" behavior issue " such as hormone imbalances making dogs extremely aggressive (not pain) a biting dog is challenging for pack leadership period.
4 dogs don't belong on furniture this is reserved for people and blurs the lines of pack leader, as are people going through doors first and several other behaviors.
5 dogs with strong pack leaders dont bite (unless there is a strong chemical imbalance.)
 
#122 ·
I have to say that during my entire GSDs life she never bit when in pain and she went through some major medical issues, such as an anal gland abscess followed by PFs that were open for a year until they healed (which we had to treat three times a day) and leg surgery. Even at the end with anal sac adenocarcinoma when the slightest touch brought intense pain, at the most she bucked but never growled, showed teeth or bit.
 
#123 ·
Same here. I've been bitten by a WGSD when I was a little kid because I was teasing her (no sympathy from my folks - got in mega trouble for teasing her). We had a Peke who growled at her breeder the day she was born - she attacked anyone any time, but was so small, 4 lbs, she couldn't break skin, she left bloodblisters. And when I adopted Bo he attacked all the Hooligans and mauled my arm within 48 hours after coming to live with us.

Other than these instances, I've owned 1 Cocker, 1 OES, 1 mutt (see above), and 14 GSDs and have never been bitten (except as noted above) or growled at.

Over the years some of the Hooligans have been in a great deal of pain, extremely/deathly ill, and none have growled or made any attempts to bite.

One excellent example comes to mind. When Ringer was 12 he was suffering from multiple issues with several areas of disc degenerative problems in his back and neck, arthritis, was on pain meds and other meds. One morning he got stuck under the front steps. I had to ask my neighbor to come over and jack up the steps to get him out. I put Ringer on lead and jumped down in the hole (the dogs loved digging there) while my neighbor, who is afraid of the Hooligans, took his lead. I pushed and lifted this painful animal up and out of the hole while my neighbor helped to pull him. Ringer, who was diagnosed with pneumonia after I rushed him up to the vet, never growled, or even gave my neighbor or me an evil eye. He accepted the pain associated with us getting him out of the hole and then lifting him into the van, then being handled by the vet techs who came out to get him out of the van and onto the gurney, and be examined by my vet who had to take chest x-rays. If any dog had an excuse to bite a human being, Ringer did that day.
 
#124 ·
I also believe that the biting is often not taken seriously enough here sometimes. After seeing my client get sued and then have to put her beloved Rottie asleep because of a bite THROUGH the fence I really think we have to take biting seriously.There are a lot of people who want to get bit to sue,believe me. Her dog was court ordered to be PTS. It is almost impossible to win a dog bit case.
There are certain instances where it is truly is an accident. My daughter jumped on my mom's dog when he was sleeping and got bit. I told my parents it was her fault and the dog was a super good dog and begged them to keep him.
However if you have a dog with an ATTITUDE you have to change the dynamics. The dog should never bite you to communicate. My dog Jazmin went thru 6 months of surgeries including an amputaion, I could have never done all that if she were to bite out of pain. My dog had an amputaion, I don't think it gets much more painful than that.
Paige gets real sassy if you try to do anything medical to her but sometimes I have to! She will act a fool but she definetly won't bit me.I hold her snarling for the vet but no way my own dog is going to bit me. I just don't get that, I really don't.
 
#125 · (Edited)
However if you have a dog with an ATTITUDE you have to change the dynamics. The dog should never bite you to communicate. My dog Jazmin went thru 6 months of surgeries including an amputaion, I could have never done all that if she were to bite out of pain. My dog had an amputaion, I don't think it gets much more painful than that.
Paige gets real sassy if you try to do anything medical to her but sometimes I have to! She will act a fool but she definetly won't bit me.I hold her snarling for the vet but no way my own dog is going to bit me. I just don't get that, I really don't.
I am going to agree on all your points. As GSD owners, we are are responsible for our dogs behaviors so we have to be mindful of others that approach our dogs. I have seen many children try to run up and hug a strange GSD and I shudder when I do not see the owner stop it and communicate to the child the proper way to approach a strange dog.

As Alpha leader to your dog, they should NEVER bite you to communicate. This would never be acceptable within a pack at any time from pack member to leader.

Throughout my GSD s life I accidentally stood on tail hair that pulled out, caught a snout in a door, administered treatments that I knew hurt and held her through many medical procedures and not once did she ever even show any form of aggression. She stayed subordinate to my direction and most important she TRUSTED me. A dog that trusts its leader should not feel the need to "step in" and use aggression. This is not their job within the pack.

On the very last day of her life before we had her PTS, she growled for the first time in her life at the vet. I softly corrected her and she immediately stopped.....personally though, had I been her after all the tests and medication we went through during the preceding 3 days, that time I could not blame her for the growl.

It also told me one thing.....in her heart she was saying "Please no more medical treatment or tests mommy. I don't want the pain". So rather than ask her to endure pain and suffering for an inoperable cancer that we could not treat to any success, we let our baby go....that was the darkest day in my life.
 
#127 ·
Couch

Oddly enough my dog used the couch her entire life.

However she also fully understood that the couch was mine.

Generally as soon as I sat on the couch she got off and went to the floor bed unless I told her to stay put for some reason that I needed.

When home I commanded her on and off it as I wished.

When not home she knew she could rest on it and with her Hip Dyps. it gave her more comfort than anything else we could find.

I have never found the couch to be an issue as long as they know it is not theirs.
 
#128 ·
My very first GSD I had as a child never showed any aggression towards anyone with one exception. That was when I was attacked by a man and she saved my life.

There was even a situation when our neighbor's mentally challenged young man came out of his house with a large knife. He came after me (thinking he was playing a game) and she stood her ground between us. She had to have 97 stitches across her back before the young man's parents could stop him. She NEVER even growled. She knew he didn't know what he was doing. They ended up having to put the young man in a home, but until they did this GSD still allowed him to pet her.
 
#130 ·
My very first GSD I had as a child never showed any aggression towards anyone with one exception. That was when I was attacked by a man and she saved my life.

There was even a situation when our neighbor's mentally challenged young man came out of his house with a large knife. He came after me (thinking he was playing a game) and she stood her ground between us. She had to have 97 stitches across her back before the young man's parents could stop him. She NEVER even growled. She knew he didn't know what he was doing. They ended up having to put the young man in a home, but until they did this GSD still allowed him to pet her.
Wow what a great dog! :) I hope when I get a GSD it will have a persoality like that.
 
#131 ·
I have to agree with the last few posts.
Timber had HOD, which is VERY painful. So painful, that in the beginning they thought all 4 legs were affected because the pain was radiating throughout his entire body.
He never snapped, growled or even took a misstep in the process. His tail was wagging for most of the time.
I have also shut his tail in the door....which I felt terrible about, but again....nothing.
(It seems as if it is unusually long and always in the way!)

He is, however, a couch potato :)
However, I have practiced off and on and can give him the off command at any time and he will get down. I feel as long as he understands that I control the couch time, he can lay on it.

But, we do this with everything in his life. I control feedings, outside, leash time, play time, etc.

Bites, at any time, are unacceptable. I am not talking about mouthing (which is also unacceptable in my home, but happens during excitement and gets an immediate correction and removal. At 8 months, he is not perfect by any means!)
But biting needs to be addressed.

Do you have a good behaviorist in your area? If it were me, I would get on top of this immediately. You may just need to make minor adjustments in your life, but it will be well worth it in the end to have a well adjusted and happy dog.
 
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