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My dog bit me, need opinions.

24K views 130 replies 52 participants last post by  valreegrl 
#1 ·
For the past year or so, Heidi has showed that she does not like for us to put our faces close to her, such as hugging her. Unfortunately my daughter and I have a tendency to be hands on with the dogs, burying our faces in their fur, that sort of thing. The following is what occurred last night:

Heidi was laying on the couch. I was sitting on the floor below her. I was stroking her shoulder and head, just generally giving her affection. She suddenly lunged and bit my face in several places. It did draw blood and looks ugly, although it isn't serious. I ran to the bathroom to see how bad it was and my husband yelled at Heidi. Afterward Heidi did not seem particularly repentant, although she was back to her gentle self.

Here is my take on this: I was doing something that I know from previous experience makes Heidi uncomfortable, which isn't a good reason for her to bite, but was still foolish and dangerous on my part. I was sitting below her in a position that can hardly be called an "alpha position." I think this was an expression of dominance from Heidi and a reminder that I need to, once again, practice leadership skills with her.

I would like your more experienced views on this. What is your take on what was going through Heidi's mind? Am I taking this too lightly? What should have been my reaction at the time this occurred?
 
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#77 ·
Originally Posted By: doggiedadwhy do something you know she doesn't like? <

Originally Posted By: BridgetFor the past year or so, Heidi has showed that she does not like for us to put our faces close to her, such as hugging her. Unfortunately my daughter and I have a tendency to be hands on with the dogs, burying our faces in their fur, that sort of thing.


I was doing something that I know from previous experience makes Heidi uncomfortable,
I agree doggiedad.

It sounds to me like this was an "invited bite". It was known that this dog had certain sensitivities, and a line was crossed. To me, that makes this bite the fault of the humans involved.

Now is it okay to have a dog that is inclined to bite? No, of course not. But once those tendecies are assessed, then work has to be done.

At the vet, check for arthritis and neck problems, get the dog on a joint supplement if it's needed and not already being used, have the spine checked out, have the eyes checked. How is the digestion functioning?

Have the thryoid checked, free T4 and free T3 at minimum. A senior panel (bloodwork) if none has been done recently.

Max bit me once (small amount of blood). It was when he was new here, and I did something stupid from a training perspective. That told me the type of work that I needed to do with him so that he didn't bite again. And he hasn't, now he wouldn't think of it.

I suspect, though may be wrong, that Heidi has given LOTS of clues, but they haven't been followed through on. Just ignoring them, or letting her be, really isn't the solution. Counterconditioning for the behavior issues, and vet care/pain management for the rest.
 
#78 ·
I wouldn't really consider this "agression" - it seems to me more about communiction & that is definitely something that can be worked on by both the dog & the humans.

I'll add ears to Lisa's list, especially as I believe Heidi's had problems with ear infections - has she been checked for hearing loss?

Hope your face is feeling better & you're able to get your family onboard with NILIF (it's really such a simple thing & can be so effective in adjusting a dogs behavior)

 
#79 ·
Originally Posted By: shilohsmom
Originally Posted By: gsdsr#1
Originally Posted By: shilohsmomI agree about the Vet, and if all checks out consider this a learning experience for you. From what I understand you were doing things she clearly doesn't like but you kept doing them and last night she snapped. Now I don't condone this type of behavior but our pets have limits too and its our job to understand and respect those limits. My dear, sweet little Shoshona (the little perfect Angel I often describe) will take my face off if I dare catch a hair while grooming her private area. I still groom her there but believe me I use caution and am ready to jump.
Why don't you muzzle that bitch and tie her head?
She's NOT A BITCH-YOU'D PROBABLY HAVE THE SAME RESPONSE IF SOMEONE WENT INTO YOUR PRIVATE AREA AND PULLED HAIR!
If Shoshana is a she, she's a bitch. Again, why not be proactive and muzzle her and tie her head short?
 
#80 ·
Originally Posted By: Castlemaid
Originally Posted By: gsdsr#1I am always amazed at the number of people that put up with biting dogs. 101 excuses. Sorry, unless the dog is in severe pain from a broken shoulder or something, no excuse would fly with me.

Oh, my dog had an ear infection and it tried to rip my face off when I touched her head. Nonsense.
I have had dogs with ear infections, mites, a painful calcium deposit on her shoulder, a torn dewclaw, etc, etc. and not one of them tried to bite me, let alone on the face.
So I'm curious. What would happen to a dog of yours if it did try to bite you for something you would consider minor? How would you deal with it?
Hmm, grab her muzzle and growl no and lock her away for a while. But I'm not the one here with a biting problem. I think a lot of people coddle their dogs too much. JMO
 
#81 ·
I treat my dogs fairly and they treat me fairly in return. I have all types of dogs from strong nerves, strong willed, weak nerves, soft dogs and then Labs who are just not my cup of tea.

I had an incident once on a believe it or not on a Friday the 13th. I use to use bungee cords to help hold gates closed or in place. We DeeDee hit the gate to open it, the bungee wasn't on but she hit it with her paw and it flew up and hooked in the center of her nose like a fish hook. She immediately went to paw at it and started pulling back. I grabbed her by the scruff of the neck and hole her to hold still. I looked at what we had going on, with my free hand I fished the bungee hook out of her nose. This is my weak nerved gal and I was able to do this because we have a bond and she trusts me.

I do every now and then make a muzzle loop out of the leash and work with the dog a bit with that one so I know If I need to in an emergency I can do that and they won't fight it or freak out.

IF I have a dog that is having an issue with me touching a part of their body we work on it to make it a rewarding experience for the dog for letting me do what I have to do. Lakota has trouble with his ears and allergies, so when I have to treat his ears I just call him and say "hey Bubba lets get some stuff in those ears", he sits and lets me do it and then he is looking for his treats. Before this he would do what I call passive aggressive, he would lay on his side and pin the ear I wanted to work on to the floor.

So I don't think muzzling is always necessary. Counter conditioning and working your dog through the problem is what I see as a better answer. But that is just me.

Val
 
#82 ·
[
PHP:<div class="ubbcode-pre ubbcode-body" style="height: 100px;"><span style="color: #0000BB">quote</span><span style="color: #007700">=</span><span style="color: #0000BB">Wisc</span><span style="color: #007700">.</span><span style="color: #0000BB">Tiger</span><span style="color: #007700">]</span><span style="color: #0000BB">I treat my dogs fairly </span><span style="color: #007700">and </span><span style="color: #0000BB">they treat me fairly in </span><span style="color: #007700">return.

</span><span style="color: #0000BB">So I don</span><span style="color: #007700">'</span><span style="color: #0000BB">t think muzzling is always necessary. Counter conditioning and working your dog through the problem is what I see as a better answer. But that is just me.

Val
</span>
</span>[/quote]


I could not agree more. Your dogs are very lucky to have you!
 
#84 ·
Originally Posted By: gsdsr#1Hmm, grab her muzzle and growl no and lock her away for a while. But I'm not the one here with a biting problem. I think a lot of people coddle their dogs too much. JMO
This might work for your dogs, but not for every dog. Phoenix was a very mouth dog when I got him. The last thing you wanted to do was grab his muzzle and tell him know. It amped him up. He did not respond to such treatment.

Know how I stopped it. Lots of patience, teaching him what was proper to mouth and what was not and giving him the proper alternatives. What works with training one dog will not necessarily work for another.
 
#86 ·
Hoping for answers.

Glad that the thread is back on track. When a member needs help, they certainly don't need someone who has never met the dog telling them to put their dog down. This is advice that should come after a thorough examination by a vet and a behaviorist (in fact, I think two -- of EACH).

Thinking of you and Heidi, Bridgett.
 
#87 ·
Yeah, lets keep the thread back on track. I too, am wondering what the Vet has to say today.
 
#88 ·
Pain and nerve both are prolly in play. Duke was a Feral dog, and in stress times reverts. If cornered, or placed in a stressful situation (like doing his nails or any kind of full restraint) he is more than likely to snap before he even thinks. Whenever I know such a situation is going to arise I muzzle him. He is fine getting vac's @ the Vet, but if full restraint were to be required I absolutely would muzzle him. I've had other dogs whose reaction to restraint is to escape @ all cost... and have forced them to work thru that and accept it. Duke however is going to a place that probably saved his life in the wild for a couple years so I have to adjust MY way of dealing with him rather than expect him to adjust. We work on stretching that comfort zone all the time, but it's a constant work in progress. I don't consider him sound nerved. Ikon or Klytie might not LIKE what I did, but biting is 100% out of the question.
My concern would be the dog's behavior around kids or other dogs who may cross the line with what she can tolerate without the bite response.
 
#89 ·
Heidi is so-so around other dogs, but MUCH better than she used to be. We have worked A LOT on it.

Heidi's physical examination did not show anything other than the arthritis in her hips that we already knew about. I was almost a little disappointed, as it would be easier to write it off as a physical problem.

As it is, here are the conclusions I have come to after considering a lot of the comments on this thread, as well as doing much soul searching: Although Heidi may have been feeling her age, she most likely wasn't hurting enough to warrant her biting. I was not doing anything to her that should have caused her pain, although maybe she didn't want to be petted at that time. I have no intentions of putting Heidi down, but on the other hand, I do intend to take action, as this isn't something I can just put up with. This is not the first incident, although it is the worst. All incidents have been when Heidi is on the couch (interesting). Heidi has an attitude problem. Since things went well for several years, I have subconsciously put things on hold and stopped working on her improvement and mine.

My course of action is, first and foremost, Heidi will no longer be queen of the couch. If a human is on the couch, Heidi isn't. If a human is sitting on the floor, Heidi will also be on the floor and in a drop postiion. In other words, Heidi will not be looming over us, which I think gives her a feeling of superiority and also makes it harder to protect yourself if there is a problem. Last but not least, I am returning and redoubling the NILIF concept. I also have a call into my trainer, who is also a behaviorist to get her views. If this happens again, I may have to resort to more drastic measures.

P.S. My daughter is 21 years old. Our whole family is on board with this.

Thanks, everyone for all the advice and suggestions.
 
#90 ·
I'm thinking the bloodwork isn't back yet so maybe something will show in that, right? Either way, it does sound like your going to get things in order. I wish you and Heidi the best.
 
#92 ·
My two cents? I'd not let Heidi on the couch at all. I find that my dogs all thrive with CONSISTENT rules. When I start creating contingent rules (if A, then B; but if C then not B), it's hard for me to remember, much less for my family members to follow through. Then the rules start to slip, and we're back to where we were.

And most importantly, it's not fair to the dog who is never quite sure if she's allowed on the sofa this time... or not? If the rule is no more couch EVER, then everyone is clear, starting with Heidi. Let's get her a nice comfy dog bed, and that is her new "couch". Since she doesn't like people messing with her at certain times, maybe she just gets left alone when she's on her bed. (Another rule. No messing with Heidi when she's on her bed.) This way, she knows that's her "peaceful" place.

Besides, with her arthritis, hopping up and down on the sofa isn't great for her joints.

Looking forward to the results of her blood test (esp her thyroid) and your trainer's insight.
 
#93 ·
Originally Posted By: 3K9MomMy two cents? I'd not let Heidi on the couch at all. I find that my dogs all thrive with CONSISTENT rules. When I start creating contingent rules (if A, then B; but if C then not B), it's hard for me to remember, much less for my family members to follow through. Then the rules start to slip, and we're back to where we were.

And most importantly, it's not fair to the dog who is never quite sure if she's allowed on the sofa this time... or not? If the rule is no more couch EVER, then everyone is clear, starting with Heidi. Let's get her a nice comfy dog bed, and that is her new "couch". Since she doesn't like people messing with her at certain times, maybe she just gets left alone when she's on her bed. (Another rule. No messing with Heidi when she's on her bed.) This way, she knows that's her "peaceful" place.

Besides, with her arthritis, hopping up and down on the sofa isn't great for her joints.

Looking forward to the results of her blood test (esp her thyroid) and your trainer's insight.
Make that four cents!
Very good advice, 3K9Mom! Our Otto is one of those guys who needs unfailing consistency. The rules are black and white for him - no ambiguity - or he will start pushing boundaries all over the place.

I, too, look forward to the results of her blood test and trainer's insight. You are wonderful to work with her after such a harrowing experience. All the best to you both.
 
#94 ·
I agree also that this dog should not be on the couch ever, and being more conscious of the NILIF may add years to Heidi's life.

I want to say too, as this thread had gotten nasty with good dogs as opposed to bad dogs. Heidi is not a bad dog. This is not her fault. I am not talking about her pain levels or whatever. She is not bad, she is just acting like a dog who believes she is in charge. She is in fact keeping you in line. If this is the prognosis. The blame or fault or whatever if necessary lies in the fact that she is predisposed to being dominant (probably could have been recognized in the litter), and her owners have been allowing her place in the family to be unclear.

So as the whole family works to change the positions, I think that this should not be done with the idea of punishment or "putting the dog in its place." As you recognise that you have let up on the NILIF, you are definitely on the right path.

It is unfortunate that it went as far as a bite. But at this point, so long as it is consistant and fair and not punishing, I think you can turn her around. Since it went as far as a bite, I think that seeking confontation is not a good idea, like a Ceasar alpha roll would probably get you bitten, but blocking doorways and going through first, and restricting access to the couch, or immediatly telling her OFF, should be tolerated and do a lot more.

Again, she is NOT a bad dog. There has just been a breakdown in who is who and the leader needs to remedy that.

If it is not dominance, but fear, again it is not her fault, and making the rules crystal clear and consistant will help a fearful dog.

Good luck with your girl.
 
#96 ·
Selzer, thank you for saying that. You are absolutely right that Heidi is not a bad dog, but after something like this happens, it is so hard to convince some people of that.

As for the couch issue, I agree that Heidi should stay off the couch totally, but am unsure after all these years of letting her get up there whether I can keep her off when I'm not in the room. Any ideas for that? Also, should my other dogs who don't have issues and haven't done anything wrong be made to stay off too?
 
#97 ·
Dogs live in the moment, you can train them to stay off the couch. It is harder to train one dog to stay off and let the others on, especially if she is dominant among the other dogs.

I think that when you increase your NILIF, you should do so with all dogs. Do not look at it as punishing a dog for wrongdoing, the wrong doing is over and done with in the dog's mind. Look at it as improving your leadership in your pack.
 
#98 ·
I always have let my dog up on the couch with me, but when my parents came to visit, of course that isnt acceptable for my mother. Ava learned in a hurry, grandma will not let her on the couch, or any of the furniture, she stayed off the furniture until my parents left.
 
#99 ·
I disagree with the no couch rule.

The dog likes to sit on the couch. You need to exert more authority over the dog (not physical). What better way then to CONTROL ( not eliminate) one of the dogs pleasures?

The dog ONLY gets to come up on the couch AFTER you are on the couch and settled. The dog MUST perform 2 tasks before being called up onto the couch - Sit, Down, whatever they know. The dog is then called up onto the couch - just like any other command you give.

When you leave the couch the DOG leaves the couch. You need to teach the OFF command. At first you can leave a short leash attached to the collar and use it to show her what OFF means.

Once she knows OFF you can then use it as another training exercise that shows your control of her desires. You get on the couch, make her do her tasks then command her up onto the couch. Let her get settled for a few minutes then command her OFF the couch.

If she instantly obeys she gets a GOOD GIRL!!! and then commanded back onto the couch.

If she does NOT obey right away you get up and make her get off the couch, put her in a DOWN STAY and then you get back on the couch and she does NOT. Not until you are ready to get up off the couch for something and then return to it.
 
#100 ·
Ok, I am going to put on poop deflector here and add my 2 cents.

Have any of you ever seen a GSD snap? Like I mean snap? I have seen it. An attack is when the GSD snaps and tries to kill everything that moves. I mean kill. Just acquire targets to kill and move on the next target?

I seen the aftermath of an 30 minute attack on my kids and wife. If we did not had a second GSD to step in ( and take on the attacking dog ) I would have had a house full of dead people.

This was the sweetest, best GSD I ever had that snapped. Her brain broke.
That is PTS attack.

Everything else is a bad dog training.
 
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