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Scratching/Itching - White GSD - Watson - Detailed Info

6K views 26 replies 12 participants last post by  Matt Stryfe 
#1 · (Edited)
Background Info:
Watson is a pure white GSD who is a tad over 1 year old. Her scratching/itching problems began sometime this past winter and have continued to worsen since. The itching/scratching has escalated to the point where there is visible hair loss on both, her front and back legs. Below is a list of what we have tried, what has been recommended, and some tests we have done to prove and disprove some theories.

I have also listed her symptoms and various other medications that she’s ingested. The only time the itching/scratched stopped was after the steroid shot. The next day the itching/scratching was completely gone. This lasted for ~3 days and then slowly increased back to ‘normal’.

Symptoms:
  • Itching/scratching underbelly
  • Chewing on both, front and back legs
  • Obsessive itching/scratching on hind quarters and back
  • Zero paw licking
  • Zero eye redness or visible irritation
  • No visible gum discoloration or abnormalities
  • Normal stool
  • Normal eating and drinking habits
  • Normal activity level
  • Muscular, strong, and agile - no signs of depression or lethargy


What we have tried:
  • Diet
  • Earthborn Holistic Puppy Vantage (chicken based)[/INDENT]
    [*]May → Nov​
  • Blue Buffalo - Large Breed Puppy (chicken based)
    [*]Nov → Feb​
  • Acana Ranchlands (red meat based)
    [*]Feb → 18 Apr​
  • Pro Plan Sensitive Skin & Stomach (salmon based)
    [*]Just started her on this.
    [*]She should be fully converted over by this weekend (26 Apr)​
  • Purchased humidifier (Jan)
    [*]Increased humidity from low 30s to low 50s in sleeping area​
  • Changing detergent (Dec)
    [*]Switched to Free and Gentle Tide
    [*]Washed bedding, couch cushions, even the carpet was cleaned with it​
  • Vet visit (11 March)
    [*]Received steroid shot
    [*]Depo-Medrol 20mg/ml Injectable (per ml)
    [*]Anti Histamine
    [*]Chlorpheniramine 4mg Tablet​
  • Dog-sat her half sister (same Sire)
    [*]Both dogs were in the same environment for 9 full days
    [*]There was zero increase in itching/scratching of the half sister​
  • Spoke with Breeder
    [*]Mother has no history of allergies
    [*]Siblings have no reports of similar itching/scratching
    [*]Geographically ~300 miles from birthplace (Philadelphia → Virginia)
    [*]Recommended the new food
    [*]Pro Plan​

Other Info:
  • First Shield Trio (flea and tick)
    [*]16 Apr​
  • Tri-Heart Plus (heartworm)
  • Comfortis (prescribed by vet during March visit)
    [*]1 Apr​

Food Ingredient Comparison:
This is a link to a food comparison I put together.
I haven’t completed cross referencing the Pro Plan
We haven’t even fully switched to it anyways.


Detailed Info:
In March, during the vet visit it was suggested that we start her on a Hydro-Protein (hydrolyzed protein) diet. The way this was explained to us was that this would eliminate any natural animal based protein and start on a ‘clean slate’. The vet suggests to most people that if this works to continue this diet forever. However, if we want to slowly introduce ingredients we could do so at 8-10 weeks.

As you might imagine; this did not sit well with us. Aside from the cost, we were not to keen on feeding (what we thought *please correct if wrong) was a more refined food. If anything we would switch to a completely raw diet and introduce food. After suggesting a raw diet to the vet the vet responded with a myriad of negative side effects. This included the typical salmonella zombie apocalypse scenarios.

We left the vet feeling discouraged.

Since then the itching/scratching has increased. She is now starting to show visible signs of hair loss in her pit areas and front legs. We are in the process of switching her food over to what her breeder uses.


After doing an extensive amount of reading we have considered the following as our next steps:
  • NutriScan
  • Full blood test panel (vet said this can cost upwards of 500+)
  • Raw Diet

Questions:
  • At what point can we rule out food allergies if ever?
  • Is it common for one pup of the litter to be highly allergic while the others are not?
  • Has anyone successfully used a NutriScan, made the proper switches, and witnessed results?
  • If it takes 6-8 weeks for food allergens to be removed from the body should you see signs of improvements before then?
  • Is there any topical solutions we can apply, to least, help her comfort level while we do these tests?
  • If we are able to find a solution will the hair return?

Any theories, suggestions, or tests anyone could offer would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance. Have a great weekend,

Matt
 
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#5 ·
My apologies for the formatting. It only allowed me to edit it once. Here is a substantially better formatted version.

Formatted Version.

Detailed Food Breakdown

Thanks again.
I'm seeing sweet potato as a common ingredient in the first three foods and that ingredient is also in the food I used. I was just asking someone a couple days ago if the dog could bd allergic to sweet potato?
 
#3 · (Edited)
I am having similar issues with my male GSD. It started when the heat was turned on in the house, no signs of any thing prior. At first I thought fleas or allergic reaction to flea bite. It was at the base of his tail where his fur is the thickest. Vet confirmed no fleas but dry skin due to the weather/heat, etc. It went away and I noticed him doing the flea biting on his back. I looked and he did some damage, you could see the irritation from the biting at it in several areas, which has caused some fur loss. I wasn't to sure in what order to go in to get the area healed, so I first tried coconut oil directly applied and on food, didn't help. Next I went to miconazole and got old shirts to cover it when he couldn't be supervised, that worked a little bit but not enough. Next I went to Neosporin and that worked to heal it pretty quickly. I also used an anti itch cream because once he got to it I was starting all over :( I gave him a bath using oatmeal/tea leaf shampoo and that seemed to relieve some if the dry skin. For the last 3 days I have been brushing him lightly and using a high force dryer to blow out the dry skin, the dryer does not get hot and he likes it. He is going to the vet on Saturday. He has been on a diet and I feel that he might have lost to much weight to fast so now I'm freaking out about that and I don't even know for sure. He will have a full blood panel and I have a doggie dermatologist on stand by. He is on a salmon/sweet Potato grain free diet. Treats are also grain free. He has no ear problems and every now and then he scratches other areas of his body but not enough to cause concern. I'm hoping it's just a matter of keeping the dry skin under control, because if he didn't have that he wouldn't be itching. I'm also considering getting him shaved if necessary starting next winter. I don't want to do that if I don't have to. I'm sure they are going to shave quite a bit on Saturday so his skin can air out. I was going to do it myself but I didn't want to knick any of the irritated skin.
 
#4 ·
I fed one of mine the hydrolyzed diet for about 6 months while I figured out what he was allergic to. I did not view it as a lifetime commitment! This was over 10 years ago but I seem to recall he did improve slowly. In his case he was rawfed before the allergies and, as luck would have it, we discovered (through an elimination diet) his allergy was to chicken and to beef. So he got put on a fish based kibble, end of problem.

By the time I went the Z/D route, we were at mucousy stools, constant ear infections, hot spots etc.

To the other questions, it has been enough years most of the answers have fallen out of my head.

When another one developed a flea allergy and pyoderma from it and the regular expensive veterinary antihistamine did not work I used benedryl at the dog dose (which is every 8 hours...much higher than human dose) and gave her oatmeal baths. Fleas gone, issue gone.
 
#6 ·
I'm seeing sweet potato as a common ingredient in the first three foods and that ingredient is also in the food I used. I was just asking someone a couple days ago if the dog could bd allergic to sweet potato?
I never noticed that. Thank you very much for pointing this out. Excel was only looking for 'exact' matches. I also found some others that I missed because the names were slightly different.

My hope is that this Pro Plan will help.
 
#8 ·
Our 15 month old Rudy just developed some atopy and itching since the tree pollen started here in northern Illinois. Bare spots on his muzzle and itchy watery eyes and itchy legs. Not severe, thankfully. I just ordered some stuff from Drs. Foster and Smith for the itchiness, and some antihistamines. If they work, I'll let you know. In the meantime, I am giving Benadryl (1 mg per pound as recommended) and applying 1% hydrocortisone cream to the atopic spots. Looks better today (day 4). I also am stopping his food with grain in it to see if that helps. Since he previously had hot spots, I already gave flaxseed supplements. Kind of the same as I did when the kids had hayfever.
 
#10 ·
Apoquel, if your vet can get it, will stop the itching which gives you time to get to the heart of the matter.
Traveler ended up having a staph infection but you would see big dandruff flakes and greasy fur and nonstop itching. I didn't see that in your very through descriptions. We did the Hemopet food sensitivity test and it was amazing how many foods he reacted to.

Yes, they can be sensitive to sweet potato. Traveler is.

I was amazed with the results since I didn't know dogs could react to rice, for one, and his reading for turkey was just about off the charts. We are limited to beef and lamb and vegies. Almost every starch came back with "avoid". Wow.

I can only comment on brown dog ticks since that's our experience here. I've been bitten plenty of times and when they first bite, it itches for a couple of hours then goes away. Days and even weeks later, they start itching again! The bites take a looooong time to heal. If someone would have told me a bite that didn't bother me for weeks all of the sudden starts itching again, I would have thought they just were bitten again and didn't notice. However, I have plenty of experience I'm sorry to say and that is exactly how it is.
Lynn & Traveler
 
#13 ·
Bob,
First, thanks a lot for the info. I believe this, or something similar, is what the vet recommended when we visited in March.

Since it seems like you've used it in the past could you answer a few questions?
How long did you keep your pup on it?
How long did it take for you to notice changes in the symptoms?
If you switched from this food to another, what was your method of introducing new items?

Thank you,
Matt

i am just going to wish you luck.i never had success finding out what kyra was allergic to. start with your breeder and ask if litter mates are having issues and what the other owners are trying.
Thank you. Yes, we have contacted the breeder (who keeps in touch with almost all of Watson's siblings). There are no reports of serious allergies or scratching/itching of any kind.


Apoquel, if your vet can get it, will stop the itching which gives you time to get to the heart of the matter.
Traveler ended up having a staph infection but you would see big dandruff flakes and greasy fur and nonstop itching. I didn't see that in your very through descriptions. We did the Hemopet food sensitivity test and it was amazing how many foods he reacted to.

Yes, they can be sensitive to sweet potato. Traveler is.

I was amazed with the results since I didn't know dogs could react to rice, for one, and his reading for turkey was just about off the charts. We are limited to beef and lamb and vegies. Almost every starch came back with "avoid". Wow.

I can only comment on brown dog ticks since that's our experience here. I've been bitten plenty of times and when they first bite, it itches for a couple of hours then goes away. Days and even weeks later, they start itching again! The bites take a looooong time to heal. If someone would have told me a bite that didn't bother me for weeks all of the sudden starts itching again, I would have thought they just were bitten again and didn't notice. However, I have plenty of experience I'm sorry to say and that is exactly how it is.
Lynn & Traveler
Lynn,
Thank you for taking the time to reply. We will look into Apoquel, as you suggested. Yea, she has no dandruff or any other flakes. Just hair loss.


All,
Here are some images of today's bath time.

Watson learning colors
For reference, this was how her coat looked back in December. Also showing her off a bit here. :D

Watson - Post bath time
This is from after tonights bath. As you can see, no lack of energy, and definitely no lethargy. :)
 
#14 ·
I would lose the Blue Buffalo, recent post showed a lot of problems with that food! We had itchy problems with Rocky for the last 7 years!

Annual vet visits and fish oil,and allergy pills for the last seven years! I started feeding Coconut Oil some months ago, no more allergy pills much, much, much less scratching! No more allergy pills in months,so I'm pretty much sold on Coconut Oil myself.

Another lister posted this site:

Ironhide Kennels: Spice of Life: Coconut Oil
 
#16 ·
My Ollie is about the same age and has battled allergies since he was 8 weeks old. You may want to ask your Vet about a new drug called Apoquel. It is brand new on the market and can be a little tough to get because demand is high, but it was worked wonders for us. Prednisone worked to stop Ollie's itching, but of course that is not a long term solution option. Apoquel being so new may or may not be long-term, but we saw improvements on day 1 and his itching is now pretty much on a regular dog level. If you search my screen name, you can see I've kept a log of our experience on Apoquel.

The hair will grow back if you can get the scratching and nibbling to stop. Ollie has some pretty bad bald patches at his peak of scratching. Sometimes we had him wear a shirt so protect his front arm pits as the hair grew back.

We use coconut oil in his food, it really helps his skin and coat. There is a thread somewhere with directions on how much, but for us at 85 lbs. he gets 2 tsp. per meal (so 4 tsp a day).

We do baths every other week using aroma paws sensitive skin shampoo.

Nutriscan is a good option. We did that too and it has led us away from all grains. We are currently on Nature's Balance Venison & Sweet Potato- grain free. We tried royal canin hydrolyzed venison and potato, but the manufacturer discontinued it.

We switched detergents and bought new dog beds with different filling, but that didn't seem to change things for us.

We also clean his ears every week just to be sure they aren't trapping whatever he is allergic to and starting ear infections.

Also, you need to be careful with the scratching and nibbling that it doesn't lead to staff infections. We have had this happen several times and have had to do round of antibiotics to kill off the staff infection.
 
#17 ·
Litter mates and allergies

Forgot to add this. We also checked on Ollie's litter mates. He was in a small litter of 3 surviving pups (runt didn't make it). Neither sibling has allergies and neither parents do either. We have chalked it up to luck of the draw.
 
#19 ·
I only have one thing to add. I am dealing with my second GSD with environmental allergies and I can honestly say that I would make an appointment with a dermatologist. It costs a little more at first but will actually save you money in the long term.

Good luck :)
 
#20 ·
At first he rec'd simplicef for the staff infections, but them seemed to reoccur every few weeks (this was prior to starting Apoquel when we were trying different foods and other anti-histamines). However after his last ear infection, we did a special lab test of his ear gunk and discovered that we are doubly lucky and Ollie has an antibiotic resistant strain of staff that is in his natural bacterial mix so we were prescribed something different to address his special staff bugs. I can't remember the name of the drug off hand, but can check later at home if you think it might help you. I do remember they were very big pills and were a pain to get him to swallow.
 
#21 ·
Wow, that's interesting. As I understand it, staph is typically tough to get rid of. As Heidigsd mentioned, environmental allergies are possible. I took Traveler to a doggie derm and he wanted tons of money for the testing. She likely right in that in the long run it could save money but Traveler's symptoms don't seem to point to environmental issues. Maybe someday I'll go down that road but I'm not comfortable doing it now.

We'll see what his regular vet says tomorrow.
 
#22 ·
Traveler's mom- I think part of the reason Ollie's staff infections came back so frequently is that for a while he was on various immune system suppressing drugs in an attempt to find something to control the allergies. This made it so much easier for the staff to start a big infection when it got inside a scratch and to top if off the drug we were using to fight the bug was one it has resistant to.

I'm no bio-chemist, but apoquel attacks allergies in a different way by binding to various receptors to stop allergic reaction. So we haven't had the topical staff skin infections from scratching since starting apoquel. In addition, the scratching has decreased dramatically so the staff hasn't had a chance to become a problem.

If Traveler has reoccurring staff infections, you may want to think about paying for the extra lab tests that will tell you exactly which kind of staff your dog has and then you know exactly which antibiotic to take to treat it. I suppose we all have staff bacteria, some of us just come with a bigger, badder batch.
 
#23 ·
Hi Oliver's Mom,

This is good to know. I didn't know/didn't think there would be tests to tell what kind of staph. I thought staph was staph:blush: I'll ask tomorrow when we are at the vets. It's a great idea. Traveler has had his fair share of ear infections over the years- I'm embarrassed to say I didn't know enough to put 2 and 2 together.

The Apoquel is amazing stuff but I'm out and the doggie derm can't get any until August per the manufacturer. I am hesitant about the product because it is so new so I'd be happy to find a more permanent solution.

I want to try the Usnea mentioned but until I get a firm reading from his regular vet, I'm holding off. I don't want to do anything that will skew the tests.

I'll report back what I find out.
 
#27 ·
We have been working in a lot of raw food into her diet. We have pretty much replaced her lunch with raw chicken or beef. In addition, we use half chickens, chicken legs, wings, and beef necks as treats for her. It's working well, costs next to nothing, and she loves them.

At first we stuck with one protein and then added a different one the next week. We closely monitored the scratching too see if the specific added protein would increase the itching. There seemed to be no change.

We tried, turkey, chicken, and beef.

As far as switching to a complete raw diet; we're working on it. I need to make sure we have access to the proper meats/organs before we completely switch over.

GSD's should not be bathed so often as they need the natural oils from their body. Try brushing them every day or every other day. Limit the baths to maybe once every two months, I believe this will not make their skin so dry and itchy. Give it a try and hope it makes a difference for your dog.
Yeney,
I am not sure if you're even directing this comment at me because of all the side bade conversations that occurred on this thread. However, if you are, we bathe Watson about once a quarter unless she really needs it (out in the mud during a walk or after a hike). I mostly do this to scan for ticks as the wet fur makes it substantially easier and she seems to be a beacon for those things.

Anyways, we have found some moisturizing/conditioners and were wondering if anyone has had any relief using those? As I said in earlier posts, this is an ongoing thing but reducing her itchiness in the meantime, is still something I want to experiment with.

To everyone else,
No real update. The spring/summer here in Virginia hasn't changed anything. Windows open or closed. AC on or off. The itching/scratching still occurs.

Something interesting though. We went on a long hike a couple weeks ago and not once did she stop and scratch. For the most part, when we are outside, there is no scratching. Could this be because her mind is so distracted or could it be that there IS something environmentally effecting her? Any advice?

Thanks again and have a great extended weekend,
Matt
 
#25 ·
GSD's should not be bathed so often as they need the natural oils from their body. Try brushing them every day or every other day. Limit the baths to maybe once every two months, I believe this will not make their skin so dry and itchy. Give it a try and hope it makes a difference for your dog.
 
#26 ·
Hi Yeney- welcome to the board.

Your advice is generally correct but in the case of staph infections, it is recommended to wash the dogs very frequently-ususally once a week or more. The reasoning is that the medicated baths will decrease the amount of bacteria on their skin.
Lynn & Traveler
 
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