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Schutzhund vs protection training

47K views 312 replies 32 participants last post by  misslesleedavis1 
#1 ·
Is there a difference between Schutzhund/IPO and actual protection work?
I thought they were the same thing until I saw posts on another thread that asked the OP if he was looking to do schutzhund or actual protection work.
 
#2 ·
Totally different. Schutzhund/IPO is a sport that consists of 3 phases of training. Protection work would be one phase (protection and biting) with some secondary obedience for control. Many Schutzhund dogs would not have what it takes to be a protection dog.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Lol, and many "protection dogs" wouldn't do a thing if pushed to the limit and trained/evaluated properly. There is just as much corruption, lies, and bad training/over priced dogs, in protection as there is in SchH. Two way street...all depends on who's training and how they are training.

To OP, they are different. IPO requires absolute precision and lots of time/energy. Protection doesn't require as much obedience, no tracking, and lots of people think different training and different "accomplishments" equal a protection dog....if that makes sense.

ETA: Didn't mean that as a slam to you at all, Freddy. It just seems that there is this constant one-upping and comparison between SchH and protection. There is crap in both venues, and dogs in both venues that aren't what their handlers think they are or aren't capable of what the handler presumes they are capable of. All about the training.
 
#6 ·
If you look at the end result of the training, an IPO routine or a PPD, you may understand the difference in training. One is a set routine. The other is an entirely different product.

Not to say that dogs can't be cross trained in both.
 
#7 ·
I think some can do both, but a lot of IPO dogs see the exercises as a game. Protection is a different situation, and requires different training.

Some IPO dogs can easily do protection work, and I'm sure a lot of protection dogs could do IPO.

As DaniFani said, there are a lot of people out there claiming to have what they do not.
 
#8 ·
I think some can do both, but a lot of IPO dogs see the exercises as a game. Protection is a different situation, and requires different training.

Some IPO dogs can easily do protection work, and I'm sure a lot of protection dogs could do IPO.

As DaniFani said, there are a lot of people out there claiming to have what they do not.

Please break this down for a newbie >.< I thought the whole training process was treated as a game just to build confidence in the dog?

Im new, obviously, and just learning (I don't even have a dog yet) but I sorta always thought IPO translated into real world skills. It sounds a bit like it's just a performance for titles and ribbons? At least the protection end of it. I should think that the obedience and tracking would be useful anywhere (should tracking be required at least)

Im not trying to insult IPO people, just trying to sort out the differences in the sports and what they actually mean as far as real world skills.
 
#9 ·
Maybe a better way to put it is how people fitness train. Some run a couple miles a couple of times a week. Others crosstrain, often doing over 100 miles a week between running and biking.

There are certainly ornamental titles in IPO, usually obtained by someone who wants to be able to breed their dog. There are also people who are very serious about IPO, and bring more pressure on the dog to invoke a more serious response. Not all IPO dogs can handle this. When done correctly, an IPO dog will be balanced and confident, and more than able to protect you should the occasion arise.

If there is no measure of success, no benchmark (titles and scores) in IPO, how are you able to measure your success relative to others?

I have not done formal protection training but I think the scope of the training is much narrower than advanced IPO training.
 
#11 ·
For scoring is there a difference between how well a dog that is trained to put on a good show and a dog that is trained to dig in and take it seriously will score?
Or does this depend on the judging as well and how they view the sport?
 
#12 ·
That's a tough question, and I will look forward to others answers to it.

For me there are too many variables. Is the serious dog going to be on the edge of control in protection and fail to out? Will he be flat in obedience? Is the ornamental dog going to pop off the sleeve early because he didn't want to be there in the first place?

A well trained dog that has had good training will score well whether he's black, sable, black and red, or pink.
 
#13 · (Edited)
What makes Schutzhund and PP dogs different are two fundamental things.
1. Stimulus
2. Environment
Schutzhund protection could be trained by using +R only. Its basics lays in using your dog's positive emotions on every step with totally friendly attitude to humans. A good Schutzhund dog is quite easy to recognize when he is still a young puppy by excessive playfulness, it is easy to make him ball mad. The training starts when the decoy plays war-of -tug with your puppy and you control him emotionally for doing right things holding the end of the lead. As long as training progresses and your dog matures, he learns to interact between you and the decoy, work under distractions and stay patient. The distractions (including stroking the dog on sides or on his head) are working as positive stimulus as well, nobody wants to cause pain to the dog. There are so called "good dogs" in Schutzhund, they are total optimists, always in a good mood during training, because they get what they want - their game. Schutzhund dogs don't protect anything, they prey on the sleeve and recognize the whole training session as a play when his mental stability is the most on the check, thus IPO illustrates nothing else but partnership. Though wearing a protective suit is a rule in Europe, it is absolutely unnecessary, a Schutzhund dog of 18 months would hesitate to bite flesh, and, if he did - he would be very confused. Agressive dogs are disqualified, because they take the whole issue too seriously as a real threat and could be dangerous to public in mid-training period.
Schutzhund dogs get used to certain environment. All dogs, in fact, aquire different attitudes to different environments and behave accordingly. An open field with a man, certain smells, sounds and presence of barking dogs set your dog's mind absolutely unmistakingly. Many Schutzhund trainers speculate what makes their dogs excited and how they possibly know where they would be taken, but somehow dogs expect their next visit to Schutzhund club and get agitated the day before the event (may be they know the week days).
Training PPD has different tasks. The dog should be able to protect you, not to play games. From the very beginning the puppy is irritated over food and toys, and should always win the battle with human. They are trained to recognize certain postures and human body language in order to recognise the threat, they should know, that human agression is not a joke. The dog should learn to fight for his life and not to be distracted by pain. There are many types of PP training, from simply training one dog to bite left hand (God knows what for) and chasing like in a police pursuit - to training two dogs to rip a human apart, biting different body parts on command, dealing with guns and knives. Some training methods of the latter could be very cruel to the dog. The environment must vary as much as possible, as well as the time of the day. Nobody trains a PP dog just for fun and your personal ambitions satisfaction like a Schutzhund dog, people train them to protect their dignity, their own life and lives of their family. Your PP dog becomes your weapon.
 
#14 ·
David, I had no idea you trained/had experience in IPO and/or protection! How is that going for you? Where is your dog currently in the training process? Any titles?
 
#19 ·
So where does ring sport factor into this where they have to run down a 'bad guy'
How does that compare?

Im not looking for a personal protection dog. Im just fascinated now that they are all so differently trained apparently.

I cannot see how irritating a dog from puppyhood is going to create anything but a monster? Maybe Im out in left field but isn't that just instigating aggression and not training at all?
 
#20 ·
People often over-simplify the SchH/IPO vs. PPD training and ideals. It isn't as simple and cut and dry as IPO is a game the dog is not serious, and a PPD is a loaded weapon.

You CAN have a dog in IPO with not a serious protective bone in its body go through the whole protection training in prey drive, trial, and get good scores. That does not mean that IPO is all about playing tug with your dog. It is a perfectly good base for starting young dogs and bring out the fight and seriousness in them. A good decoy will adjust to what the dog needs to make it look its best. A good decoy can see the dogs that are serious and push them to develop their fight and raise their confidence.

If people are interested in protection training, IPO is a great place to start and learn. It takes hands-on experience and time to develop the eye that can differentiate between a dog working in prey with the decoy not putting much pressure on the dog, and one that has heart and willingness to engage for real.

My mixed breed wasn't very serious, but I still learned a lot working with her, and we both had a blast. Gryff has a lot of real potential, has been worked by a number of trainers that train police K9's, so he has been pushed and challenged (at my request) to see what is in him, and he did well.

Two different dogs, worked to the level of their potential. That is what you should expect from any training, whether PPD or IPO.

My suggestion still stands: get involved in IPO to get a taste of protection training, and if you find that you have a dog with a lot of potential, and you are interested in pursuing more advanced training, they you already have a great foundation to build on.
 
#21 ·
IPO is definitely the first stop for me. As soon as the local club reopens in the spring I intend to watch some of their training sessions just to get a feel for the whole process.
Long before my puppy even arrives (or is even conceived)

I also want to look into French Ring. I like the involvement and intricacy of it (if that makes sense?) The more complicated something is the more I want to try it. Although that might not be the best reason for being interested in something that's generally the reason I research anything.

All of this will be sorted for me, personally, long before I settle on what I want to do and get a dog for myself.

I just wanted general information on how it all worked =)
 
#25 ·
As soon as the local club reopens in the spring I intend to watch some of their training sessions just to get a feel for the whole process.
I suggest you to apply as a volunteer helper and see if you like people there. A club is a great thing, you would not only learn a lot, but select a trainer you can work with, sometimes the quietest and seemingly small people happen to be the best working with sports dogs - that is the way to develop your communication skills.
 
#28 ·
Yes there is a difference. Not all schutzhund dogs are prey monsters and not all PPD's are baby eating man stoppers. I train and compete in multiple sports. Some I feel are more "real" than others, but that doesn't mean that they all don't serve a purpose. EVERY sport is very difficult at high levels. So I wouldn't put too much thought into which one is "more difficult".
 
#30 · (Edited)
Here is a SchH dog on hidden sleeve, is he preying?
Of course he does. Wolves don't suffocate a buffalo, they rip him apart and eat while he is alive. Try to watch a video with a wolf hanging on a buffalo, and you will see a split image, a complete replica of a Schuts dog. Try to rip a ball on a rope out of a puppy's mouth - you will see the same expression in the puppy's eyes as that of the wolf in the video. But, seems, dogs do understand it as a game. There are many opinions about it, the majority so far came to a conclusion that the reason why dogs are obsessed with round objects like balls and the decoy's sleeve - that is because we keep their mentality undeveloped by feeding them and keeping them happy. They remain puppies to the rest of their lives, that's why they still play being already old. Adult wolves don't play, while Schutzhund dogs play absolutely happily with other dogs, as well as they play ball with their owner.
PP dogs don't play, that is the known fact. They turn into adults with the very first hard blow on their ribs.
 
#32 ·
the term personal protection is so vague. not to mention there is no set standard. i could show my friends my dog biting a sleeve and doing some fancy obedience and tell them he is personal protection trained and will die for me etc and 100% of them would believe me.
 
#36 · (Edited)
all SchH dogs
Of course, the wolves are not the dogs, but, which dogs are you talking about? GSD is not only the closest breed to the wolves according to the words of its founder, but GSDs were interbred with wolves continuously to produce fresher breeding lines. American Working line is one of them. There are many traces of common behaviour in wolves and GSDs including urge to get a higher social status, or shyness at the early age. We cannot judge the breed by some dogs, as well as we cannot judge the nation by some individuals, so, saying that not all dogs are this way or the other doesn't help to build up a collective image. There are common features for Schutz dogs which differentuate them from PP dogs. I see it as the the dog's development splits at some point, Schuts dogs and PP dogs are trained in the same way, until...I wouldn't hesitate to say this: a Schutz dog becomes a part of a team in a pleasant game, and PP dog finally has to realise that he has no choice but to fight alone. I think, both issues are preprogrammed in the dog - he preys on a buffalo, and protects his pack from bears.
 
#37 ·
ahhhh, i'm not even sure what to say. according to the words of the founder, wolves add nothing to working dog breeding. 2nd many fine working dogs don't have an urge to get a higher social status any more than the hundreds or thousands of other breeds or mixes. I think shy puppies turn into crappers for the most part.
 
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