German Shepherds Forum banner

The effects of different collars on dog's spine.

15K views 157 replies 41 participants last post by  Chicagocanine 
#1 · (Edited)
Thought this was an interesting article about the different risks behind alllll the kinds of training collars and harnesses on the market these days.

Sorry if it's a duplicate thread, I searched and couldn't find it anywhere recently around here. I think bottom line, know how to use the tool and use it properly, like we always say....just thought it was a thought provoking article.

Happy reading :)

Caring for your Dog's Neck and Spine: Dog Collar Issues - DogBreedz.com

ETA: My apologies if "affect" is the proper grammar. I get those two confused constantly lol.
 
#4 ·
Wow I was surprised by the prong collar mention. I use it in my home when I am training on a 4ft lead, however she is still a 14 almost 15 week old puppy I am worried that when she gets excited on walks outside that she will hurt herself. I realize the dog needing to realize that she is the one causing the correction is the desired result, however I still worry that she will try and bolt off to people when we are walking by. Maybe in a few weeks :) good read though thanks for posting :)
 
#11 ·
Two points on the prong first I wouldn't use one on a dog until I can see a problem that needs correcting. And this is a puppy so there's that.

Second I try and figure out what I'm doing wrong before I grab a tool to fix a dog.
Having said that if you can do this, then you have no problem!



But this these would be my first choices (I don't do the clicker thing myself)

 
#7 ·
Great read. Definitely sharing it so others can see why I choose to use a prong collar.

On that note, please don't use them on dogs less than 6 months old or 40lbs. It ISN'T safe at that point. A 14/15 week old should NOT be wearing one. As with any tool, there ARE ways to abuse them.
 
#14 ·
I don't think it's about "ease," just training tools and preferences. A prong collar isn't a "last resort" or something to use when "all else fails." It's just another way to get a clear message to a dog.

My personal opinion is that the prong itself doesn't screw up the dog....inconsistent, badly timed, training, does. It has to be clear and consistent. The dog can't behave one way sometimes and not be allowed to do it others (leash pulling, jumping, breaking a down, etc). Dog can't get a correction for breaking the down and then other times the dog is allowed to break the down himself.

When I first started training I asked my dog to "down" he downed...then a second or so later, he started to get up. I gave another verbal...he paused...I gave the verbal again, and he went into a down again...The trainer was like, "so...which command does he have to listen to, the third one, the one with the most 'serious' tone??" lol. I was told to go to him when he broke it, take his collar, and lead him to the ground by the collar (not rough or anything). He fought me, but eventually calmed, and stayed in the down. Then broke it again, I took the collar again, gave the command and put him in a down (there were lots of releases and praise throughout the session to release the dog from the pressure). I could have used a prong to correct for breaking the down, I really think it wouldn't have mattered to the dog. I think I would have achieved the same success, because I was being consistent.

I wasn't being consistent before. The dog didn't know which command was my "serious" command....it took that one session for me to go from a dog that released himself, to a dog that waited to be released because he knew if he broke it, I was going to come and lead him to the ground again...I wasn't just going to nag him with another verbal command. I think so many of us aren't consistent. Dogs test it too...."is she really going to make me down, or is this just nagging and I'll just wait until she gets serious."

My point is, I'd venture to guess that a lot of the "misuse" of tools like a prong, are owners that stick it on the dog, and give corrections now and then....aren't clear, aren't timed correctly, and are not consistent (sometimes the dog "gets away with" the behavior, other times it doesn't, so it will always test it and will definitely break it during distraction). Anyway, just thinking out loud lol.
 
#13 ·
Great point on the "easy fix" thing - but also...

Some dogs are quick to catch on to leash training (cue Patton!) and other dogs are very slow and resilient to your training despite different methods, and you just have to have a management tool to be able to get through your walk/potty break safely - cue the prong collar!

I didn't realize that Frag couldn't walk outside on a leash without dragging us around until he was almost two and we moved to the city for college. I was like *crap* I have a 90lb dog that has no idea how to walk about on the sidewalk. We didn't have a fenced yard, and I started with silky leash training instantly, but still had to take him out on a prong collar every time because he could pull me around easily if he wanted to, and sometimes he did! I am 140lbs so it wasn't easy for me to control him. Prong helped give me some "power steering" while I worked on training the problem through positive reinforcement, and I never used it to correct him, just for him to correct himself.
 
#16 ·
I should add...I always have to laugh at people who shun or belittle someone(speaking generally here, not to any previous posters, SuperG I don't think you are saying this) who uses a prong/ecollar as a "quick/easy" way to do something .....yeah...so?? When it comes to pet obedience, and the dog quickly understanding a command and moving on, I just don't know why you'd want to draw that out if it isn't necessary? How is that fun for the dog, why not just teach it, clear, concise, and move on? Especially a lower nerve dog prone to stress.

I've seen great success achieved with some horrible rescue dogs (nervy, DA, HA, etc), and almost every one was done on an ecollar. The dogs weren't traumatized, on the contrary, most were saved from their path to euth. I mean, it's wonderful if you want to achieve the reliability in obedience via a more drawn out way, I just don't like when those same people turn around to those using ecollars and prongs and say things like "well...I don't want the easy/quick route...." In a way that implies that those using those tools don't want to take the time to do it the "right way." One isn't more right than the other....

Of course, I don't think you should rush anything....I just don't think it needs to be super slow either for *most dogs.
 
#27 ·
Just a side note.. because not all prong collars are created equal.. You have to get a good one.. The ones that the ends are more rounded versus the cheaper ones that are flat and the edges are sharp..
 
#28 ·
Good article... With Viktor, I use several types of collars and change them up depending on what we are doing, where we are doing it, how he is behaving... (prong, choke, martindale and flat)
 
#29 ·
Just a heads up, for people who've never used a prong: it is not a "quick fix" at all. There's no such thing as a quick fix, lol. It does make the dog tend not to pull, because it's not comfortable. Just like wearing high heels and panyhose will make a woman not race up a flight of stairs - except in the movies, lol.
 
#32 ·
You've solved it!! If prong collars get banned everywhere, we'll just develop a high heels/pantyhose system to train dogs in!! hahaha :) Picturing a GSD in high heels made me smile this morning.
 
#33 ·
They didn't mention martingales. Martingales tighten the same exact way a prong does, but they are not correction collars so they do not give the effect of power steering. However, if you teach your dog to walk with a loose leash, then you do not need to be pulling, yanking, or correcting them.

I use a flat collar for the tags.

What they said about the choke chain is not correct. The idea is not to let the dog pull until it chokes itself. That is ridiculous and uninformed. The choke chain is a correction collar like the prong collar. It should remain loose around the dog's neck. When the dog reaches beyond where it should be, a correction is given and the pressure is immediately released. Usually the sound of the chain is enough for the dog to know it is not where it ought to be.

Unfortunately, the choke chain has been used poorly and ineffectively by millions of people because they are cheap and readily available. People put them on backwards so that they do not release tension, they yank and crank away, they let the dog pull, pull, pull, they have even hung dogs up by them until the dogs are unconscious. It is not a tool I feel comfortable suggesting because of how easy it can be abused, however, it can be safe and effective.

The chiro that wrote the article could have made it an article that says, "train your dog to walk on a loose lead, otherwise he will be out of alignment." Instead he picks the collar that causes the least trouble because it self-corrects, and the dog there fore isn't pulling the owner using its neck. However, depending on the use of the prong, you can still do more damage with a prong collar through corrective pops, than you will if you train the dog without the used of these types of corrections.

I am not a fan of prong collars. I am not purely positive reinforcement either. But I do not like using leash corrections on dogs specifically because a dog that is corrected will generally need stronger and stronger corrections to avoid behaviors that are of more value to him, which means stronger leash pops, prong collar or no, and that means it is likely that you will cause damage to the dog's alignment. There are better methods out there to train dogs.

If you repeat his little study and check out dogs that have been trained to walk with a loose leash, then I am sure you will have less issues with those dogs overall, than any of the collars for dogs not trained.

It is just a feel-good article for people who use prongs, when places are banning them.
 
#50 ·
They didn't mention martingales. Martingales tighten the same exact way a prong does, but they are not correction collars so they do not give the effect of power steering. However, if you teach your dog to walk with a loose leash, then you do not need to be pulling, yanking, or correcting them.

I use a flat collar for the tags.

What they said about the choke chain is not correct. The idea is not to let the dog pull until it chokes itself. That is ridiculous and uninformed. The choke chain is a correction collar like the prong collar. It should remain loose around the dog's neck. When the dog reaches beyond where it should be, a correction is given and the pressure is immediately released. Usually the sound of the chain is enough for the dog to know it is not where it ought to be.

Unfortunately, the choke chain has been used poorly and ineffectively by millions of people because they are cheap and readily available. People put them on backwards so that they do not release tension, they yank and crank away, they let the dog pull, pull, pull, they have even hung dogs up by them until the dogs are unconscious. It is not a tool I feel comfortable suggesting because of how easy it can be abused, however, it can be safe and effective.

Typical, use the most extreme, rare, examples you can, to fear monger a tool....let's not worry about the PERSON that would do this...but the tool being misused....

The chiro that wrote the article could have made it an article that says, "train your dog to walk on a loose lead, otherwise he will be out of alignment." Instead he picks the collar that causes the least trouble because it self-corrects, and the dog there fore isn't pulling the owner using its neck. However, depending on the use of the prong, you can still do more damage with a prong collar through corrective pops, than you will if you train the dog without the used of these types of corrections.

I am not a fan of prong collars. I am not purely positive reinforcement either. But I do not like using leash corrections on dogs specifically because a dog that is corrected will generally need stronger and stronger corrections to avoid behaviors that are of more value to him, which means stronger leash pops, prong collar or no, and that means it is likely that you will cause damage to the dog's alignment. There are better methods out there to train dogs.

Yeah....we know...and stop acting like because you have a couple prong collars "laying around somewhere" (gosh, you've said that so many times)...that you can now speak all-knowing about them. I could go buy a tractor and drive it around my yard and then let it gather dust in the garage, doesn't mean I know anything about growing and farming corn.

If you repeat his little study and check out dogs that have been trained to walk with a loose leash, then I am sure you will have less issues with those dogs overall, than any of the collars for dogs not trained.

It is just a feel-good article for people who use prongs, when places are banning them.
Of course that's how you'd interpret it....it's results you don't like. Nevermind he's a doctor, and is simply stating where he sees the most problems compared to other areas.
 
#34 ·
There are lots of people who use a prong collar on their dogs because the dogs are better behaved in public when they're wearing one. They don't tend to pull or lunge because they don't like the sensation. It would be easy to say "train your dog" but the reality is that some of these dogs just won't be out in public anymore without a prong. The other problem is that without the prong, in public, these dogs are going to act like the rottie down the road here: dragging his owner wherever he likes, showing the world that she has zero control over him, and scaring the crap out of other people who are nervous when they see an out-of-control large dog like that. It might help influence people who want to ban certain breeds, because they're afraid of them.
 
#36 ·
Whatever. One does not need a prong collar to train a dog. What you are saying is that too many people are not willing to go the whole nine yards and train their dog. They are banned in some places. I wonder what all those people are going to do now. If you cannot control your dog without a prong collar, then you should not own the dog. Prong collars come open -- then what do you do??? The dog gets to the nasty little dog and chews it up because you have zero control over it and haven't bothered to train it because you have this beautiful device that makes him safe in public. I am truly glad that they do not fail often, but it is only masking the symptom, it does nothing about the problem.
 
#35 ·
However, depending on the use of the prong, you can still do more damage with a prong collar through corrective pops, than you will if you train the dog without the used of these types of corrections.
Damage how Selzer? In what sense are you talking about?

I am not a fan of prong collars. I am not purely positive reinforcement either. But I do not like using leash corrections on dogs specifically because a dog that is corrected will generally need stronger and stronger corrections to avoid behaviors that are of more value to him, which means stronger leash pops, prong collar or no, and that means it is likely that you will cause damage to the dog's alignment.
Interesting comment.. Especially coming from someone who doesn't like the prong, nor uses one..
 
#40 ·
Damage how Selzer? In what sense are you talking about?



Interesting comment.. Especially coming from someone who doesn't like the prong, nor uses one..
I have been around the block a few times. I have an e-collar, I have a prong collar, I have tried it on a couple of dogs. Now, I choose to not use these things. But if a dog can be damaged with a choke chain, or a flat collar he can be damaged with a prong as well. Some dogs pull on prong collars. Some people give a lot of leash corrections with a prong collar.
And people generally build the dog's tolerance to corrections by starting out small and increasing their correction if needed.

If you train with very few corrections, any correction verbal or physical has much more punch. It is not permissiveness because you are not letting a dog get away with any unwanted behaviors, but you are saving your negative markers for what really counts, and therefore you do not need a lot of negative markers. You teach the dog what to do. You tell the dog what to do. It works a lot better than yanking a dog for doing something he shouldn't do.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top