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Kira charged a guest in my home

15K views 135 replies 45 participants last post by  Anthony8858 
#1 ·
*** I KNOW I'LL GET BADLY FLAMED FOR THIS, BUT I'LL TAKE MY LUMPS AS THEY COME***

Kira did something rather strange. It happened a few days ago, and I've been meaning to write about it. And once again, it involved her not being comfortable with people in my home.

Before I describe, I just want to say that she's been an absolute angel with guests. Very neutral, sniff and walk away. Generally paid no attention to anyone.

A few days ago, my wife had a female friend over. the woman was in my house at least 2 hours before anything happened.

Kira was sitting on her ottoman (completely out of sight), in the front portion of my house. She knew the woman was there, and was neutral.

My wife was with her friend, in the family room towards the rear of my house. As I mentioned, they were completely out of sight.
My 13 yr old daughter had an incident at school, and my wife, her friend, and my daughter were chatting in the family room. I was in the kitchen.

At one point, my 13 yr old had gotten a little teary eyed, and the woman got up from her chair, and walked over to console my daughter, and wipe her tears.
Without a clue, Kira bolted off her ottoman, came barking and charging. At first I thought she had seen her cat friend, but quickly realized that she went to neutralize the woman. She didn't nip, jump or bite. She charged, and stopped at the woman. I intervened, and removed her.

I was startled by this.
Could she have picked up the sound of my daughter's sniffles? There was no way Kira had a visual on her. There are lots of walls and turns separating the rooms.

It's getting to a point where I may have to crate Kira, whenever ANYONE is in my home. As great as she can be, she's apparently not too comfortable with people in my home. It's not the first time.
She's been fine for months. I never expected this.
 
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#59 ·
I totally agree. I think Anthony needs to send her to my house. We're all basket cases here.
 
#58 ·
I wouldn't call Kira anything even close to a basketcase. I do think she has some nerve issues, but not nearly as bad as some--really. AND, I think she's still young, still maturing, was recently spayed....all of this can factor into this to some degree.
 
#62 ·
Any time someone comes here to visit..Sib knows to go into her crate..After awhile I will ask company can I let her out..I will not put her in harms way..e.I. scaring or hurting ANYONE..and she has never charged lunged or gotten protective..IMO your dog should be in her crate when you have guests..This is not punishment..This is caution..
 
#68 ·
anthony anthony anthony, you are a brave soul :)

I don't know how many times I've read threads on this board about people writing "will my dog protect me" , and the majority of answers are YES even tho that majority of dogs have never been in the situation to test it.

I would like others to think about this, you have a stranger in your house, one of your kids is getting agitated , voices are raised, stranger puts their hands on kid,,how many think their dog is going to sit there with a wagging tail?

Kira may very well have her 'issues', but I see this situation, as Lauri and Mrs K threw it out there.

Dogs are dogs, people "think" they are supposed to know the difference from a perceived threat and a real one, most dogs DON'T. They hear/see/feel the emotions of their "family", and react to it.

If Kira had 'wanted to', she could have gone ahead and nailed the "stranger"..She stopped. How many of 'our' (general our), dogs would have stopped Or would have continued on and bitten?
 
#71 · (Edited)
How many of 'our' (general our), dogs would have stopped Or would have continued on and bitten?
I don't know, and until I know I can trust him 100%, I am not putting Hans in a position for me to possibly find out.

This is the last thing I will say:

The same thing (or variations of it) happens again and again, and it gets posted, and then a deluge of replies results, and then there is arguing between members, or snarky replies.

I do not understand the purpose of these posts, especially if people who are trying to help get mocked for it.
 
#69 ·
Adding to my post here, OP should look into a trainer who can explain defence reactions vs. fear reactions.

My pup tries to lunge at the end of her leash. She either self corrects, or I correct. This is NOT a fear reaction, just an obnoxious puppy. It's a lot better now, and throughout her life even if I don't see that response for 5 years it's always going to be in the back of my head to correct and try to teach this out of her.

Remember the downfall to any punishment is that it almost always has to be re-administered one time or another. Nothing is forever.
 
#70 ·
I don't think Kira is fear aggressive, but may be a bit weak nerved. Anthony is very brave to weather the beatings he's recieved from folks who have never personally met his dog. :) FWIW I do think most, if not all, dogs go through stages when they're young. This may or may not be something she grows out of, but I think Anthony is well aware that greater management is needed until then.
 
#114 ·
I agree with a little bit of what everyone's been saying. Now, I haven't actually read Anthony's other threads, with the exception of one I skimmed a few months ago, so I don't know Kira's history or much about her temperament at all. But here are my thoughts after reading this thread:

Anthony, you seem to expect more out of Kira than you should, especially at this point in her life and training. From your posts, it sounds like you have certain definitions of how a dog should react to certain stimuli and situations, and when Kira acts otherwise, you overanalyze and scramble to find an explanation and a "solution". Sure, sometimes you set your dog up for failure (happens to the best of us), but I think you wind up doing it more to yourself! In your recollection and your following responses/posts, you sound stunned, perplexed, resigned, disappointed, and a myriad of other emotions. Take a breath. You are making it too easy for yourself and others to blow it out of proportion. Stop scrambling to dissect your dog and start grabbing hold of situations like this.

There isn't always a solution, at least not the one you're looking for. Sometimes it's about proper management, whether it is because it's not something you can "fix", or because there's absolutely nothing that needs to be fixed. Don't expect anything of Kira right now, she's a young dog still growing in a brain. Just remove her from any situations that may trigger an undesirable response.

And for the record, I've had my dog tethered to me for two hours to three hours when guests were over. In between chores we practiced heeling, keeping focus, impulse control, and mind games.

I don't think Kira is fear aggressive, but may be a bit weak nerved. Anthony is very brave to weather the beatings he's recieved from folks who have never personally met his dog. :) FWIW I do think most, if not all, dogs go through stages when they're young. This may or may not be something she grows out of, but I think Anthony is well aware that greater management is needed until then.
I agree with everything said in this post.

Easy enough. Put the dog up. Give her a special treat in her crate so that friends coming over are a good thing for her and be done with it.

My dog usually are put up unless it is "dog friends" .... and no issues, just do it out of habit.
This is me as well. People coming over? When he was young we would give him a raw knuckle bone or a bully stick and keep him in a room upstairs. Now the moment he sees who it is at the door, he will run up the stairs automatically, no cue needed (depending on who the guest is - he recognizes a few people who are okay with him).

With them, all he wants to do is squeeze into the couch with them and smother them with kisses. Couch time is snuggle time in his book, and he loves taking advantage of his favorite visitors. But out of habit and respect for the people in my house, I keep my dog out of the area. It is no inconvenience to me, and hardly any effort, and my dog is fine being out of sight. There is no reason for him to be hanging around, although we have quite a few friends who request it!

How many of 'our' (general our), dogs would have stopped Or would have continued on and bitten?
I think it's very easy for people to jump on the "you're not dealing with your dog's fear aggression properly" bandwagon - especially when they themselves have what they would consider a solid nerved dog and have a tendency to have a go at those who are brave enough to ask questions on a forum like this.
Mine would stop. My dog is a dog with the potential to be "protective", the defensive drives are prevalent, and I would not put it past him to show aggression towards a perceived thread.

But I'm very sympathetic towards Anthony's situation. My dog's charged more people than I can count. He's rushed at my younger sister with hackles up, snarling and barking in a low rumble. He's shown my mother hard eyes and put himself in between me and her to bark in a very low and serious display. He has given a serious warning bark and growl to a few teens running at me in the middle of the night. But given both context and the fact that I know my dog, I found his reactions acceptable.

Why? He charges people who walk through the door unannounced. And promptly parks himself in front of them and stops. They try to move past him? He'll most likely just give a cursory sniff and bounce around saying "hello". He rushed at my younger sister twice in his adolescence, when he was all instinct and reflex and drive and absolutely no brain - the only two times I was truly upset. She threw the door open to a pitch black room, not knowing my dog was/we were there (first incident was just the dog in the room, second incident was both of us).

Next scenario - he stood between me and my mother because he perceived a threat when she shoved a large metal object at me and I backed away screaming. In reality, she was giving me a thermos to pack (I was in the process of moving), and I screamed because I was 90% sure there was year old caffeine lingering at the bottom and it grossed me out. But hey, my dog didn't know that. Last few incidents are self explanatory - it was late at night, we were in an area with no street lamps. A couple of teens/acquaintances thought it'd be fun to spook me. Dog responded appropriately. I know his thresholds and what is a warning, to what degree the warning is, and what triggers him.

He is not a fearful dog - he turns off quickly and calmly at my reassurance and is more than content to leave it to me. In fact, he understands that any perceived threat is not his to face. A warning is sufficient, and then it is mine to handle. Someone could kick me in the face or shove me off a cliff and he'd dance around in circles, tail wagging. Raise a stick over my head? Time to play catch! Tackle me to the ground? He loves rough housing! But he is almost four years old now...he sure went through a fear stage in his adolescence. At Kira's age, he may have reacted in the exact same way to a petulant, upset teen (...hey, that sounds like me! :wild:) and a stranger reaching out.

Kira may have some nerve issues, or she may be going through a phase. As I've said, I haven't really read your other threads so I don't know the whole story. Outside the context of Kira's past issues, I wouldn't call her behavior surprising or inappropriate given her calm state immediately afterwards and the fact that she stopped herself. My own dog never did have any problems with strangers (he was people crazy, he loved them all too much) but the two times he ran at my sister was worse than anything Kira seems to have done. And he is my first dog! Nevermind my first German Shepherd...

Difference in my case was that the second time (first time I figured it was a fluke and foolishly ignored it), I recognized myself as the problem and left it at that. My dog was surprised, reacted, and his crazy little instincts kicked in before his brain could. It was dangerous and my fault - I should not have been lazy and left the lights off + door closed with him in the room. My dog did what he did and it was unnecessary to diagnose his problem when all I had to do was prevent it. I knew what triggered him and I knew how to avoid it, and that was all I needed.

In addition to prevention, we worked on management and encouraging behaviors through a sort of self rewarding negative reinforcement: he offers a desired behavior (quiet focus, a sit, etc.) and the negative stimulus that was bothering him (perceived threat/trigger) is removed (by no longer being presented as a threat).

"Referee".
Is this something you've seen?
Is it common, or unique to my situation?
As everyone's already said, German Shepherds are fairly notorious play police. Big time party poopers and professional killjoys. My dog makes it his job to moderate other dogs and also to let me know when he thinks I've given another dog enough attention. He is still learning the "everything is my call so back off, please" rule. We end up practicing a lot of "down, stay"s around here.
 
#73 ·
thank you michelle:)

It wasn't meant to be snarky or mocking, it is my opinion as others have stated theirs on here as well:)
 
#76 ·
It's getting to a point where I may have to crate Kira, whenever ANYONE is in my home. As great as she can be, she's apparently not too comfortable with people in my home. It's not the first time.
Ya think? ;) Only because we've been saying this exact thing over and over for months?

Time and time again she has done things like this and you're always surprised.
Yeah, I don't understand why it isn't sinking in. Anthony, I assume you're a smart guy, so we must not be explaining things very well, why your dog does the things she does.

Good in a sense that she protects her home, but bad that she protects it when I'm there, and without a clue or reason.
As the others mentioned, Kira had a reason to suspect something, in her mind. Dogs sense emotions; a stranger to the dog was moving toward your daughter, and your daughter was agitated. That's going to arouse suspicion in any GSD. Those are the kinds of things you have to be aware of when you own this breed. Perhaps as Kira gets older, she will learn a bit more discrimination and these kinds of family dramas won't bother her so much. But right now, when you have visitors in the home, you must always be thinking, "what would Kira think about this?" Say if your buddy slapped you on the back, or one of your daughter's friends playfully pushed her, that kind of thing. Dogs are not always going to understand that this is play between humans.

Dogs are dogs, people "think" they are supposed to know the difference from a perceived threat and a real one, most dogs DON'T. They hear/see/feel the emotions of their "family", and react to it.
Yep.

Anthony, you aren't a bad dog owner. I think the most respectful thing you can do for Kira is to remove her from situations where she is not comfortable, because as uncomfortable as she is, Kira still feels as though she has to be in control of the situation. That's pretty common in GSDs.

Kira acts like she's cool with guests, and acts calm and relaxed, because it's what you expect from her. But don't think that means she isn't being vigilant. As you saw, she reacted from the other room in an instant, and that was from a situation she didn't even see. So she is certainly feeling some amount of hypervigilance and stress just having strangers in her house... and she will feel the need to take control if something arouses her suspicion. Remember, GSDs are supposed to have suspicion. Don't put her in a situation where she may interpret a threat where none exists--she's not a human, so can't necessarily tell the difference.
 
#77 ·
My first GSD, Bear, would do this exact same thing, particularly before he was about 5-6 years old. We used to tell him "it's okay" or "okay." Those became his "stand down" words and as soon as someone in my family said them, he relaxed. Been a long time and I don't even remember how we trained him to do that, but we did. I don't see this behavior as unusual, but it sounds like you want to work with Kira to help her differentiate when things are "okay."
 
#78 ·
I think in this incident the dog was being protective but a problem i see in the future would be if the children were play fighting with there friends, then would the dog know they were playing or being serious.

It comes down to how confident are the owners that the dog is safe around children.

Also if the op wasn't present would the dog have been handled properly by the other adults in the house?

I would say crate the dog when visitors are over or the owner is not present to avoid any complications with children. It's just not worth having an accident.
 
#79 ·
Without a clue, Kira bolted off her ottoman, came barking and charging. At first I thought she had seen her cat friend, but quickly realized that she went to neutralize the woman. She didn't nip, jump or bite. She charged, and stopped at the woman. I intervened, and removed her.
Since your showing us your panty drawer...When Kira stopped at the woman, was she vocalizing? Did your wife/daughter correct her (vocally) when she came charging in? How was Kira when you removed her? Did you have to drag her off growling and snapping, slinging slobber everywhere?

Did you crate her until the woman left?
 
#80 ·
All she did was charge. I don't see the problem ?
Honestly
She is probably picking up on your anxieties.
Charging is not a problem, she didn't rip into someone and send them to the hospital.
Plus it was in her home, if she did it on the street I would be concerned, but that wasn't the case.

If someone does something in my home that warrants charging / barking.. the person probably deserved it and need to respect their boundaries as a guest.

Put it behind you and move on. Kira was acting on instinct, you're not going to change that.
 
#84 · (Edited)
I am not going to try and analyze her actions. I can't even figure out my own dog's! I will say that when I read this I didn't think much of it. She charged..she stopped. My brother had a GSD that would not have stopped! He would have had to drag it away snarling and growling. I was terrified of that dog.
My dad had a dog that would growl if someone, including myself, came near my dad. If my dad said it was ok....the growling stopped. That dog saved my father's life more than once by doing just that....growling and showing some teeth. But he would always look to my dad for further instruction. He was never trained that way and was fine with people and dogs. Just very protective of my father.
OTOH my son has a pit bull that is human aggressive. He will charge and bite. Even with people he knows you need to be careful. If the atmosphere gets too charged or excited....he will bite. My son has learned to manage this.
To me the big thing here was that she stopped.
 
#86 ·
Mainly because we lived in the country and he had free roam of the house and yard . He could come and go as he pleased in or out. So we never had to crate him. But when he started showing aggression to our company we didn't have a choice. Then he really hated company cuz he knew he had to go in the crate. I tried to make a game out of it after I knew he hated it but no luck. As I said it was our fault he put two and two together but I was a lesson to us. Now that I have my own GSD I knew I wouldn't make the same mistake with my dog. I just don't want someone to make the same mistake and crate them in the wrong manner like we did. So I'm sharing my story.


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#87 ·
Easy enough. Put the dog up. Give her a special treat in her crate so that friends coming over are a good thing for her and be done with it.

My dog usually are put up unless it is "dog friends" .... and no issues, just do it out of habit.
 
#88 ·
I never put my shepherds at risk-if there's guests in the house the dogs are crated-should I need to let them out, my guests are instructed to sit and be still while the dogs are in motion and my dogs are perfectly mannered and obedient, but things can happen is a split second even in a controlled enviromant.
 
#93 · (Edited)
So the advice has consistently been the same.
Why keep ignoring it? Just curious.

It does not take much effort on the part of a dog to break the skin and it can be fast and you already have well documented (forum) warning signs. She is not a killer and seems a sweet dog overall, but why take the risk?

Friends dog bit me - a recent rescue - no warning (and I have gotten pretty good at reading dogs but it was a floppy eared dog and I was not really paying attention to it), I was not looking at the dog or relating to it in any way - it just charged and bit - but it broke skin and caused some nasty techniclor bruises. And it was quite painful for about a week. Why risk that with your friends?

It was lightning fast. Frontal bite and retreat --- I just verified rabies vaccine and let it go then kept it clean and treated with antibiotic creams, trusting they would figure out what to do but not everyone would be that easy on them.
 
#94 ·
when you know that the dog has an issue and you continue to ignore the reality and fail to put in safe guards - put it on record which may be used against you should something happen , and people are blase about it as being a common experience , expected of the GSD , you wonder why people are having trouble getting rental accommodation or insurance or are being charged high insurance rates to cover liability ? "
Dogs are dogs, people "think" they are supposed to know the difference from a perceived threat and a real one, most dogs DON'T. They hear/see/feel the emotions of their "family", and react to it.

If Kira had 'wanted to', she could have gone ahead and nailed the "stranger"..She stopped. How many of 'our' (general our), dogs would have stopped Or would have continued on and bitten?

I totally agree with this. I think it's very easy for people to jump on the "you're not dealing with your dog's fear aggression properly" bandwagon - especially when they themselves have what they would consider a solid nerved dog and have a tendency to have a go at those who are brave enough to ask questions on a forum like this.

But in reality dogs are dogs, as Jakoda says. None of us truly knows what would happen in every single set of circumstances, no matter how much you train. Training is obviously necessary so that you can hopefully get the predicted reaction you desire out of your dog. But predictability isn't always going to happen, no matter how much we often think it will because nothing in life isn't predictable and living creatures aren't perfect.

I don't know Anthony or Kira personally, but I think that Kira was simply being what she would consider protective. As others have said, she STOPPED. Kira was simply being protective in her home environment. End of.
__________________

good entertainment though to be set up with this

"*** I KNOW I'LL GET BADLY FLAMED FOR THIS, BUT I'LL TAKE MY LUMPS AS THEY COME***

And once again, it involved her not being comfortable with people in my home."
 
#95 ·
How do I handle this?..... Well.... That's why I start these threads.
Simple, baby gate her off in a different area or crate her when someone comes over she is unfamiliar with:)

I have an aussie who'd nail a male stranger (females are always welcome), without thinking about it. He is crated everytime a "male" that he is unfamiliar with comes in the house.

My previous female was friendly with everyone, one occasion we were out after dark, I was using a pay phone (she was on leash with me), this woman came out of nowhere, marching right up to me saying "oooh I love gsd's , reached out and grabbed my arm, Sami went 'off' on her, didn't bite her because I saw 'something' coming, and jerked her back, she had NEVER done something like that before and never did anything since. But she would have nailed her if I hadn't jerked her backwards..The woman wasn't a threat, just rather stupid in her actions..But it only takes a "second" .

Masi is fine with ANYONE walking into my house, she alert barks, is rightthere, but 'come on in'..She's not going to be your best bud, but come on in:) She is a big time "watcher",,from just how she 'is', I could see her getting in the middle of something if some stranger were grabbing me, I was agitated etc..Don't know if she'd "bite", she's never been tested, but I do know she wouldn't back off and would be right in the middle of it..

Again, dogs are dogs, we can trust them 100%, or not. If one has a dog that they aren't sure about, that's the type of dog that needs to be monitored and dealt with accordingly based on the situation.
 
#97 · (Edited)
Many of us are amazed that not only do you own a dog, that by it's very breed, is designed to alert and/or protect you of intruders, but you insist on allowing this dog the full run of the house even during the most stressful times (parties) to any dog.

And you keep having the same issues - your dog is being a dog - yet you still give her free reign.
Someone's going to get hurt. Period.
And when someone's dog hurts someone, it often involves law enforcement, rabies quarantines and the like; even up to the dog's death.

So. Think long and hard about how you're going to protect your dog.

If I had to describe her actions, it was as if she said "knock it off", and walked away.
That's the problem. Dog doesn't get the make the rules in the house.
 
#99 ·
I think we should make a pool.

How long before Anthony starts another thread going something like this:

"Kira bit a guest in my home! I don't understand, it just came out of nowhere! She was lying quietly in the other room, when my guest raised his voice and made grand gestures toward me while describing a play during a football game, and Kira came charging into the room and grabbed the guy by the arm and drew blood! Why did she do this? She's been so good with people lately, showing NO signs of stress whatsoever! I totally did not see this coming! Now the guy wants to sue me! How could I have prevented this?"

:rolleyes:

Sorry, Anthony, to have a poke at your expense, but I really do fear this scenario if you don't take things more seriously.

Not saying Kira is a bad dog, or a vicious dog, but she is a GSD, not a Maltese.
 
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