German Shepherds Forum banner

What would you prefer

6K views 43 replies 39 participants last post by  NewbieShepherdGirl 
#1 ·
Ok so here's the deal! I am so sick and tired of the uppiedy ups saying you should not breed your dog because you don't have papers for your dogs... SO WHAT! If you know your GSD is pure bred, you have both your male and female cert. for hips and elbows, are very healthy and void of any and all genetic deformities or diseases, why should you not breed them?

I see way to often these "pedigreed" dogs having so many health issues, so they may be papered and registered, doesn't give those owners the right to breed them over people who have impeccably healthy animals who would make very healthy offspring which would lead to future generations of healthy GSD's!

So what would you prefer, getting a GSD who has papers who does not have health certs? Or getting a healthy pup without papers from a breeder who's only focus is the health and well being of their puppies?
 
#31 · (Edited)
It is absolutely true that not every breeder who has papers on their dogs is necessarily a good breeder, but it still gave me a place to start! Breeding dogs just because they are 'purebred' is a terrible reason to breed, whether done by a registered breeder or not.

There should be a goal in mind, with the breeder adding and removing dogs from their breeding programmes for the sake of this goal. Different kennels want different levels of drive, trainabilty, structure and so on. Every good breeder wants a healthy dog.

When searching for my pup, not a single unregistered breeder health tested their dogs! No hip/elbow scores. No titles (how enthusiastic can he really be about the breed?).

All they said about the parents would be something like "good temperaments, vet says their hips are ok" .. ??? If you could tell how good a dogs hips are just by looking at them, why do responsible breeders bother with x-rays and analysis by specialised practitioners?

So much lurks in genetic history. Good kennels keep track of their lines, not to be fancy or hoity toity or uppidy up. They do it, because they want to ensure that future puppies do not suffer a lifetime of weak nerves, unbalanced structure and poor health. The spend thousands of dollars, for very little return (at least mine did), because the goal is not cash - it is healthy puppies, who will grow into fantastic adults with improvements on their own parents. Some breeders even have contracts with new owners, stating that if you are no longer able to care for the new puppy at any point in its lifetime, you give him or her back! So no shelter, no horror-filled rehoming stories. These dogs are cared for, every step of the way.

What I'm trying to get at is that breeding shouldn't be taken lightly. And many people have shallow, short-sighted motives - registered breeder or not. Papers are useless on a puppy if the parents are not sound. On the flip side, healthy parents do not = healthy kids. Look at any human family. However, a history of healthy, sound dogs provides a bit more reliabilty. And this is where our knowledgable, ethical, selfless breeders come in. Many of them are on this forum.
 
#34 ·
Ok so here's the deal! I am so sick and tired of the uppiedy ups saying you should not breed your dog because you don't have papers for your dogs... SO WHAT! If you know your GSD is pure bred, you have both your male and female cert. for hips and elbows, are very healthy and void of any and all genetic deformities or diseases, why should you not breed them?

Ok, so you got x-rays of YOUR dog. What about it's parents, grandparents, siblings, half siblings, aunts, uncles, etc? Without the papers you can't research that. Who cares if you dog is OFA good, if all its other tested relatives failed or if only one or two of them passed out of 20+? The depth of pedigree is just as important as the immediate parent. Many genetic diseases are caused by recessive genes that don't present in the current animal, but that animal may be a carrier, and if bred to another carrier could produce affected animals. By knowing the propensity for certain issues in the bloodline you can make breeding decisions to help avoid creating it.


I see way to often these "pedigreed" dogs having so many health issues, so they may be papered and registered, doesn't give those owners the right to breed them over people who have impeccably healthy animals who would make very healthy offspring which would lead to future generations of healthy GSD's!

Nope, even pedigreed animals that have health issues shouldn't be bred. It's not ethical. As for the non-pedigree, see my previous answer.

So what would you prefer, getting a GSD who has papers who does not have health certs? Or getting a healthy pup without papers from a breeder who's only focus is the health and well being of their puppies?

I would buy neither from a breeder, otherwise known here as a "greeder". If I want a "purebred" without papers and/or no verified health testing appropriate to its breed I will go down to the SPCA or contact a rescue group to get it.
Another point you may want to know is that in Canada it is ILLEGAL to sell an animal as purebred without registration papers from an organization incorporated under the Animal Pedigree Act. If a "breeder" does this it is fraud. In this country, if the puppy does not have papers it is legally not purebred, that's why I always want to ask the people who post "Is my puppy purebred" threads if they have papers because on this side of the border, no papers, no purebred.

*It is also illegal to sell the papers ie puppy w/o papers $300, w/ $350*
 
#36 · (Edited)
If you don't care about papers, rescue. That is a very valid option for people who only want a good pet and have no interest in the genetics of the dog, but at least you are putting money in the hands of people helping against the problem, not people who actually ARE the problem.

Papers are worthless... that is an absolute truth.
The paper in which the Bible, the Constitution and the classics is written is only good to set fire on, it's the knowledge within the words on those papers what is worth. Don't say something has no value only because you don't know how to read it. Chinese characters are gibberish to me, yet maybe I'm missing the Lún Yǔ on my hands...
 
#37 ·
If you don't care about papers, rescue. That is a very valid option for people who only want a good pet and have no interest in the genetics of the dog, but at least you are putting money in the hands of people helping against the problem, not people who actually ARE the problem.

Papers are worthless... that is an absolute truth.
The paper in which the Bible, the Constitution and the classics is written is only good to set fire on, it's the knowledge within the words on those papers what is worth. Don't say something has no value only because you don't know how to read it. Chinese characters are gibberish to me, yet maybe I'm missing the Lún Yǔon my hands...
Cato, I always appreciate the way in which you explain your point. Thank you:)
 
#38 ·
Papers themselves don't have much meaning. For instance the AKC is just a registry to keep track of all the paperwork with certain rules and regulations. But they themselves have nothing to do with health or temperament of the dogs they register. If I have a GSD pup from 2 registered GSD parent dogs, and that pup is toothless, with bad hips and elbows, and blind..... unless the breeders forbade it with a limited registry (which a RESPONSIBLE breeder would along with never doing a repeat breeding of the parent dogs...) I could not only register my poor pup but BREED it and register the puppies!

My money is only going to 'responsible' breeders who actually use the information included in the registrys. Research is much easier when you can look at the parent dogs and then find out their temperment and associated with their lines. It's not just about the healthy happy dog you are looking at. If you don't do the research you wouldn't get know the additional GENETIC information that all the other littermates DID have issues that are also included in the one you are looking at and can get passed on.

So I choose to save my money, find a 'responsible' breeder and support their goals and breeding program with my cash. Otherwise, if I'm going for a crap shoot and can't afford a responsible breeder, than my crap shoot will take place by visiting shelters and rescues and saving a dog. Rather than paying $500 to support and allow an either uniformed or ignorant breeder to CONTINUE to add to the over population of dogs in the USA. Breeders that take the money and never want to hear from you again.
 
#39 ·
As the owner of a working dog, I would want to know the genetic background if I was getting a puppy. There have been some instances where I would consider an unpapered dog IF I personally knew and trusted the breeder and the pedigree was known, but that would be rare. I would also want to know if that dog was unpapered due to import documentation issues or due to someone wanting to breed a dog on limited registration as I fully support that structure as the only control good breeders have only their lines since domestic registries put no constraints on breedworthiness.

If it was an adult or young adult all I would care about is health clearances and working ability.

Titles-I would hope the breeding stock has them but I would also not reject a dog when dogs without working titles but with working certifications were included in the pedigree. Also, with the pedigree you can look at the achievements of uncles and aunts and that is also reassuring to see a consistency of the breeding program at meeting requirements for producing suitable dogs.

The term "uppity" is frustrating to me. If a dog is purebred, concerns about inbreeding and the possibility for genetic issues should be of serious concern. Good breeders research the lines and know which dogs bring what to the table good and bad. I would prefer a breeder subject their stock to independent objective review (the frustration I face even with working certified dogs is you are on your own at conformation assessments-and the titles (in my case IRO) that can allow you to get a koer rating still may not be realistic goals for many to spend time acquiring) Backyard breeders do not do any of this.
 
#40 ·
Wow! I knew this one would be a fireball when I read the tag line! I purchased a dog without papers (yup byb) out of ignorance. I met the parents and saw them running around the yard apparently healthy. After reading many threads on this forum I've seen how fortunate I was to get a good dog! He's not the brightest crayon in the box and I certainly wouldn't breed him. I can see both sides of the argument-people who are very concerned about the breed integrity and those who may not be in a financial position to put the money into the pedigreed dogs with no intention of breeding/showing (that would be me unfortunately). All in all, I lean toward breeders with pedigreed dogs who's bloodlines are known.
 
#41 ·
To answer the OP question:
I wouldn't buy a pup from EITHER breeder.


For me to buy a pup, it (parents) must have:
a) all appropriate health clearances

b) at least a minimum of titles which give an independent evaluation that the dog is conformationally, tempramentally, and work ability sound.

c) both of the above for several generations
 
#44 ·
I've got a rescue dog, so I've never dealt with this, but if these were my options then I would pick neither. Having had a dog that is poorly bred (I'm assuming based on the things I observe about her) I would never pay a breeder for a dog that they can't prove. There's always that chance of getting that random dog that against all the odds is still a nervy, unhealthy, pup, but the odds are so much in your favor if you go with a breeder who knows what they're doing. In the future I want to own my own farm, and when I do I'm gonna get a purebred shepherd to help me herd my sheep, and this dog will come from a well established breeder who proves their dogs and has consistently healthy dogs. If I'm shelling out $1200+ dollars then I want to have the best chance that what I'm getting will be able to do the job I want it to do. Again, not a guarantee for sure, but why stack the deck against yourself. Even if I was just getting it for a pet I'd want the deck stacked in my favor. I would say the same if I was just buying for a pet too. If I'm gonna pay the money then I want the best chance at getting a thoroughly healthy dog.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top