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Zoey's training

10K views 114 replies 13 participants last post by  Nickyb 
#1 ·
I wanted to dedicate a thread on Zoey's training and progression. If you don't know Zoey, she's my belgium mali/gsd mix rescue that was adopted on 4/29/12 It has been a loonnnngggg road with her and she's been doing great, until the past week or so.

I would like to start by saying she's off to her consultation tomorrow for training, we've been having problems with her nipping and constantly mouthing. She got my buddy in the arm this weekend, i went out to get him during the evening, he was behind me and i bent down to grab her by the collar to push her back and she want right for his arm and ripped his shirt. No blood but it was a fairly hard bite and ripped his sweater, i had him give her two treats when they were both inside and she seemed fine, she's met him before and showered him with kisses in the past. I think this was more of a protective "hey, who the ef are you" type of bite but still, NOT OK to put her mouth on anyone unless i give it the ok.

Also my brother was playing catch with a football with his buddy outside, she was the monkey in the middle and she nipped him in the arse.... I understand how this would set her up to do something wrong in which I told my brother to keep her inside if your going to tease her, but still not ok.

Her progress with dog socialization has stopped because my neighborhood has a few off leash dogs that like to bombard us during our walks.... now when she see's them she goes bezerk where-as before she would heel nicely and ignore most dogs.

The fact that Zoey WILL bite is the scary part, I don't want these nips to get any worse. Even with all these quirks, I still love her to death... I just hope we can fix these issues...

She is set up for tomorrow with Steve @ K-9 Top Performance | The best performance your dog can give.
I plan to enroll her into "K9 camp" where you pay extra but you get more then regular daycare. "K-9 Camp is a more concentrated structured "daycare". Your dog will be trained and socialized with other dogs all throughout the day. We will work on the basic commands that you are working on in obedience, as well as walking on the leash. We spend a lot of time teaching them the proper manners needed for socialization with other dogs and people."

I think this would be a great way to start her road to progress because I just don't have the knowledge in training dogs like I thought I did. I think once a week at k9 camp will be great and then see how she is, whether she needs more training and socialization. I will keep this thread updated
and your thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.

At the end of the day, I will never give this dog up. I gave her up once to try for a better life only to return in worse condition. She is mine forever and I will do what ever it takes.
 
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#54 ·
Today went great! I got some shots of Maegan and also some video. I will post the video once I upload it all but here are some pictures. Very proud of Zoey and Maegan, Maegan was scared to handle her at first so I took the lead for the first half of the morning. Once she seen how well behaved Zoey was, she took over.

The personal protection class starts right after our obedience class, everyone in that class had an eye on Zoey the whole time :) I got approached by a few people not only giving me pointers with Maegan and Zoey, but also asking if we were staying :) i wanted to, and I almost did, but 80 bucks a week for training was enough. Steve was raving about Zoey to one of the guys there about how well she'd do in the protection class. Not yet, but I think it will be in our future.







 
#55 ·
Wow, Maegan did a great job handling Zoey -and Zoey behaved so well! All your hard work and expense is really paying off. Zoey is doing so well with the camp and the obedience lessons - I agree with you - I would hold off also on the protection lessons. She has settled down so well and as long as you continue tug with her - to give her that outlet - and since Maegan has reservations on the protection training (she certainly has a good point about it) - I would really hesitate also. The pictures really showed Zoey has got to be nearly if not all Malinois when you look at her next to the GSDs. And interesting I was reading on the Malinois rescue site that many Malinois end up in rescue because they really aren't suited to IPO and Schutzhund, instead Malinois (this reminded me what is often said of Dobes) are noted for their outstanding affection to their people, which Zoey has. I also often have wondered if her problems were due to to that type of training in the wrong hands. Lovely photos - thanks for posting.
 
#56 ·
Thanks, I will get some video up once I figure out my Youtube account! Zoey's affection for us is crazy, and we've only had 9 months and that's including the time and trust we lost when we had to give her up, it would probably be even more if we never did that. I agree with her being all Mali, everyone either ask's if she's a Mali or what breed is that, everything about her to me screams Mali.

Our biggest problem with her now is her being alone with my brother and his friends, last night she strolled right in his room with his friends and hopped on the bed, they were petting her when one of them started to pet her neck, and she started barking and going off. This has happened before but it must be something about her neck that sets her off around other people. I tell the kid 1000 times how to handle her and introduce her around his friends, but the kids just an idiot. She'll stay with me from now on and just need to be managed around other people. I was really hoping this wouldn't be an issue but oh well.
 
#57 ·
My guess is that she was pinched on her neck or by her jaw - the sensitive areas. So she doesn't know that your brother and his friends are only going to pet her not hurt her. Will she tolerate wearing a banadana around her neck? There are some real cute ones for dogs. Maybe when people see that, they won't pet her by the neck. Otherwise, I agree with you to be sure to keep Zoey with you.
 
#59 ·
Video is up, should work. It's of Maegan handling her, yes she needs to relax her right arm but she was stressed since it was her first time.

**Update for K9 camp**
Nothing new, just still socializing her with other dogs. Steve showed me another video of her playing with a few other dogs! He sent me the video on my phone but through sending it, the quality was drastically reduced so it wouldn't be worth posting. We'll be doing another training session this Saturday as well, her obedience is flawless, Steve just wants to get her ready around the other dogs with me handling her.


 
#60 ·
Maegan and Zoey did great together. A+ students! I see where Maegan had Zoey's complete attention, praised her and how happy Zoey looked when she was praised and yet Maegan knew when to insist and was able to get her in the proper sit position and then promptly praised and rewarded. What I am so impressed with is how fast and far Zoey has come. In class, she is calm with other dogs. Then at camp, she can enjoy playing with other dogs. Best of both worlds.
 
#62 ·
Thanks Mary, I appreciate your responses throughout this whole thread, you made some key points that I'll share with Maegan to further her confidence in handling Zoey! The stress levels have gone down dramatically, I can finally breathe easy. I don't mention but on leash during our walks, we've encountered a few off leash dogs, some barking behind her fence, charging on leash etc etc and she has been progressing beautifully. My stress is now on my money situation, I'll be switching her off the Blue Buffalo sensitive stomach and putting her on Kirkland for the time being. She had hook worm so I put her on this food, cleared it up and just kept her on it but $60 for a 24lb bag is starting to burn a hole in my pocket when added with training. I will go back to normal BB once the training settles down though.

I just read through your entire thread of your Zoey and her training. Thanks for posting it. I'm at the beginning of the training journey with my Zoey that I adopted last month. This thread reminds me to stick with it. Your Zoey is a beautiful girl.
Thanks for reading! WGSD's melt my heart, my last dog was a WGSD Princess and your dog is just beautiful, thanks for adopting also! The biggest thing I've learned is to stick with it. It's a constant battle but even though I've learned a ton so far, I still have a long ways to go.
 
#61 ·
I just read through your entire thread of your Zoey and her training. Thanks for posting it. I'm at the beginning of the training journey with my Zoey that I adopted last month. This thread reminds me to stick with it. Your Zoey is a beautiful girl.
 
#64 ·
Thanks Stroid for reading my thread and glad I could encourage you, your boy Jake looks ALOT like Zoey, maybe long lost siblings! HAH

Quick update:

Zoey did great last Saturday at training, Maegan handled her most of the day and Zoey did fairly well considering I left and watched somewhere where she couldn't see me. She had some anxiety and was constantly looking for me, even though she's attached to her mom :) All and all a good day. K9 camp went great yesterday, Steve had her in the intermediate training class that they do on Thursday morning and although she did great, Steve thinks she could use another beginner class solely because of her dog issues and not obedience.

We've stepped up our obedience/tricks at home also due to the freezing weather here, we can only play for so long in 0 degree weather! The biggest improvement is her focus, some major improvement in locking eyes with distractions around. Once it warms up, I'll take her to a mall parking lot to further our work.
 
#65 ·
Hello Nickyb,

I also just read your entire thread. I have a 2 year old gsd, and she used to "beat me up" when she was younger (mouthing, jumping, etc), and have seen slow but consistant improvement. I did have her since she was a pup, but your thread inspires me that there is hope as long as you keep on it. Love your details, and subsequent updates/improvements. Good luck with Zoey (I almost named my pup Zoey, and Mika's father was an all white gsd like your Princess).

Sarah from the Vineyard, MA

Mammal Vertebrate Dog Canidae Dog breed
 
#66 ·
Hey Moshamoon, thanks for reading! There is definitely hope, some dogs just take more time. Princess learned everything so fast she was basically human where as Zoey is a slower paced experience, but then again, I had a lot more time to train Princess when she was a puppy. Zoey's a good name too :)


Update:

I'm very proud of Zoey and how she handled herself this weekend. Zoey and I were walking our normal route yesterday which we go through everyday that passes through a schoolyard. Were walking and we see these two jack russels chasing a ball around a corner off leash.. oh great so Zoey and I walk away in a different route then normal.... low and behold yap yap yap yap yap yap right behind us so I turn around and they are right there on both sides of us growling and snapping. At this point Zoey is in a sit showing no signs of aggression. That's when one of the dog goes for zoeys leg, I counter it with a light kick to the body... then the other one decides to growl and try and strike, that's when i kick it in the face/chest a little harder then the other one. That was enough for their owner to rile them up but WTF this is the second time the SAME STUPID JR's were off leash and tried to attack my dog, luckily for them, it was the owners son handling them so I didn't flip out on him... some people are just stupid.

Training went great on Saturday, I really tested her by getting closer to other dogs, having her lay down closer to them and etc.. She did great but there was a DR GSD in the class as well that we got a bit to close for his liking, he started to act up and Zoey did a bit for the most part but a quick correction and a step forward and back to a down, she was fine. He did this again to her in which case I simply called her name and she didn't even flinch. :)

I stayed after class since the protection class is right after obedience..... I just wanted to watch, or so I thought :) A few dogs go out and hit the sleeve while I'm talking to everyone and since it was free for the first time, I decided to give Zoey a shot at it. All we did was work with the bite pillow since it was her first time and the first time Steve swung it around Zoey just looked... next time SHE TURNED ON! The drive this dog has is a bit ridiculous and I felt like shes done it before. I don't think well continue with it just yet as I want to work her obedience and manners but I would LOVE to harness that energy and drive she has for some type of bite sport.
Were also picking up a treadmill for her to drain out more of that energy she has :)
 
#69 ·
Hey Moshamoon, thanks for reading! There is definitely hope, some dogs just take more time. Princess learned everything so fast she was basically human where as Zoey is a slower paced experience, but then again, I had a lot more time to train Princess when she was a puppy. Zoey's a good name too :)


Update:

I'm very proud of Zoey and how she handled herself this weekend. Zoey and I were walking our normal route yesterday which we go through everyday that passes through a schoolyard. Were walking and we see these two jack russels chasing a ball around a corner off leash.. oh great so Zoey and I walk away in a different route then normal.... low and behold yap yap yap yap yap yap right behind us so I turn around and they are right there on both sides of us growling and snapping. At this point Zoey is in a sit showing no signs of aggression. That's when one of the dog goes for zoeys leg, I counter it with a light kick to the body... then the other one decides to growl and try and strike, that's when i kick it in the face/chest a little harder then the other one. That was enough for their owner to rile them up but WTF this is the second time the SAME STUPID JR's were off leash and tried to attack my dog, luckily for them, it was the owners son handling them so I didn't flip out on him... some people are just stupid.
...............................
You mean that your dog just sat there while you were fighting off the attacking JRT's? Wow! That sounds like great control!

What do you think your dog would have done if you missed with your kick and a JRT (ortwo) latched onto your leg (could happen with a hyped up JRT!)? Would the dg have sat there while the dog was hanging onto your leg (or arm)?

I just don't think tht my guy would have sat around while another dog was that serious in their attack (and so close and also threatening me!).
 
#67 ·
Another quick update, finally ordered Zoey a decent muzzle https://www.bridgeportequipment.com/ProductDetail.aspx?productId=93
so we can do ALOT more socializing out of k9 camp rather then that being the only source. She did great again yesterday, apparently she gets along great with a very annoying GSD there. He was laying down for a couple minutes when she ran up and pounced on him which turned into nothing but play. Her prey drive still fires up when another dog runs by her but were working on that. Also measuring her for a X-harness so when spring hits, we can take out the long board and have her pull me :)
 
#68 ·
Great Zoey is getting a social life outside of K9 camp. And the muzzle for now is a wise precaution. I don't know about the pulling the long board - Zoey may have ideas of her own. When I had my Husky, I got a harness for her and a sled. She loved pulling it when it was empty, but sat right down and refused to move when there was someone on it :)
 
#70 ·
Well we have a flat school right down the street from my house which would be perfect for learning. I'm still debating whether I should get a mountain board instead since it has brakes!!!!! It will be a learning experience for both of us but I think it will be fun.

You mean that your dog just sat there while you were fighting off the attacking JRT's? Wow! That sounds like great control!

What do you think your dog would have done if you missed with your kick and a JRT (ortwo) latched onto your leg (could happen with a hyped up JRT!)? Would the dg have sat there while the dog was hanging onto your leg (or arm)?

I just don't think tht my guy would have sat around while another dog was that serious in their attack (and so close and also threatening me!).

Yes, I told her to sit and to leave it which she did. She didn't want to by any means though, when they swarmed us, her eyes were wide open, shaking and doing the typical Malinois teeth chatter. If I hadn't told her to sit and leave it, she would've bit and shook em because 1)they were viciously barking and running up on us and 2) it's the second time and boy did she remember them.

I kicked the first one when he lunged for Zoey's leg, if i had missed, he probably would've got Zoey and she would've attacked. She is VERRRYYY protective no matter what size the dog is if another dog is threatening us. I did have some tension on the leash so I can't say she was 100% in my control, but she was obedient and trusted me to handle it.

I hate the fact that it was a JRT since Maegan has a JRT and I want them to get along, this only sets us back. I honestly wouldn't mind if Zoey went after them, I like the protective traits in her but I also want her to realize what is a threat and what isn't, not just all dogs.

I've been going back and forth trying to think if I made the right choices then, a part of me says of course, she didn't attack them but another part of me says, Nick... it's the second time it's happened with the same pair of dogs, Zoey was on leash while they were running loose... maybe have her not attack but a fierce reaction would suffice as well, scare the living daylights out of the owner so he'll think again about having his 2 JRT's off leash.
 
#71 ·
"Discretion is the better part of valor" so you acted accordingly - if you let Zoey settle it it will put her back because she will think you can't control 2 little dogs and that will make her unsure and anxious also Zoey due to her bigger size could very well kill or injure those dogs, which will then make Zoey the guilty party and potential liabilility issues for you. What I do is to first turn and shout at the approaching dogs : NO - STOP - GO BACK . Then I turn Sting fast on heel and got out of there and not look back - no contact. I have found it works with both big and little dogs . The loose dogs think at first - what fun another dog, but when the human turns and shouts - they are surprised and stop and that gives me the time to turn and to do the big ignore, the dogs might follow for a bit but the game is over - who wants to follow someone's back.
 
#72 ·
Thanks, I feel as if I did but a part of me just wants to teach the owner a lesson. We have a very strict leash law here in MA, simply put, if yours dogs off leash no matter what the circumstances are, you are liable for it. Unfortunately we didn't see them coming up until they were at our heels, but i will be shouting in the future for a frontal approach.

I'm getting pretty excited for the spring/summer, there's a lake with a 3 mile walk around which attracts a TON of dogs which ALL are on leash since its next to a busy road. I think this will help tremendously since we can literally sit there all day long and just correct her on her re-activity. This will also save me some $$ for training since it's seriously starting to put a toll on me.
 
#73 ·
Congrats on not giving into that urge to teach the dogs a lesson. It would be winning the battle and losing the war. No matter how strict the leash laws he could lie and say his dogs were attacked by Zoey while they were adjusting the collar or whatever. I know it happened to me - though my Sting and the other lady's dog were off leash. She let her dog off the leash to come directly at mine, then reported it and said my dog had attacked hers while she was adjusting the harness. Fortunately, the sheriff believed me.
I think it is great you are giving Zoey real life practice. My Dobe, who had a CD in obedience - her breeder had done all that before I got her. Well, she was fine with other dogs, but pulling - she was worse than my Husky ever was. It was like she was trained to do it in the ring but not outside of it. The class training is only preparation for real life. And you are giving her the much need real life practice.
 
#74 ·
Not sure what to say on this but I think the problem lies with Zoey being overly protective around me. We got back from K-9 camp today and Steve said Zoey did good, she was a little feisty today but good overall. We comeback I feed her and go to the gym. While I'm there, my older brother comes over and visits my mother and she was perfectly fine. His friend comes and picks him up, walks right in the door, Zoey is fine and does nothing. Now.... I come home and they are leaving, Zoey usually stays in the mudroom so this is were we are. They keep going on about how good she was, thats when Zoey jumps up on my brothers friend and I immediately correct her with an OFF! This is when she went around and tried to BITE HIM IN THE ASS!!!! This happened about 5 minutes ago so everything might not make sense as I haven't proof read this lol. It wasn't a vicious snarling attack bite, she just went around him and went for a cheek. Thoughts????? I don't get it.
 
#75 ·
This has been the first incident in quite a while. Steve did notice she was a little feisty a camp today. It might not be the cause, but she did have a free protective training lesson - last week or so if I recall. And she was hesitant at first then got into it. It could be that triggered her overdrive . I still think she had that type of training that went wrong for her in the past and caused her overdrive and overprotectiveness. Or Zoey could just have been overtired and the end of her good behavior. She is doing remarkably well, considering how many different people she is interacting with. Perhaps, next time, when you come home, keep Zoey by your side on the sit/stay and hold her collar while the others leave.
 
#76 ·
Well I was petting her since i just walked through the door, and had her by the collar, they then said how good she was so I let go and this was the outcome. She didn't actually bite him but she was about 95% there. Time for more socialization i guess. I do think the prot class had something to do with it since when you hold a dog back at what it wants, it aggravates them thus causing this.
 
#77 ·
That explains it. And yes, I agree with you about the prot class. You held her back, then released her, that for Zoey became the okay to attack. Since she was doing so well, I think it would be better to stay with the obedience classes - at least finish this session but then continue to do the real life practice like you have been doing. For bitework, I would only do tug with her and and let her win. I would not do any decoy work or sleeve work because it winds her up and that triggers her to overreact at home.
 
#78 · (Edited)
Update:
Zoey did great at K9 camp, much better then last week. Main reason why I'm writing is because she went after my brothers friend again (same one she always goes after). She got him pretty decent in the arm (no blood) but WTF, growing old of this reoccurring problem. I'll have a chat with Steve but of course this happened when I wasn't home. I brought her to my brothers room with him and the victim were, gave him a bunch of pieces of steak and just had him feed her while on leash. I'm at the point where I'm just going to bring over ALL of my brothers friends, put her in her muzzle and see how she does.

She's fine with some guys and hates others, but loves all females. She's gone after a couple of his friends and although he doesn't know the proper way to introduce her to them, she still shouldn't be attacking them. Thoughts:mad:
I honestly don't care if she ever progresses further with her dog socialization, I'm happy with where we are at, but I can't have this male aggression.
 
#79 ·
I can understand your frustration and yes, that is best to talk it over with Steve. My thoughts are that Zoey has come a long way but due to her past history will need to be carefully managed around men. I don't think putting a muzzle on her and having all your brothers friends over will help - I really think it will backfire and make her more aggressive. I think she is reacting out of fear and though your brother and his friends mean well, their harmless actions are being perceived by Zoey to be a threat. It can be their body language, goofing around, whatever. It is best if Zoey is not left alone with them.
 
#80 ·
The thing that really makes me frustrated is that she does this right when they walk through the door. She likes a lot of my guy friends, but there's a certain few that she'll just snap on. There's no warning, they'll walk in and boom. I'm going to see what Steve says, but I'm sure he'll have to come over and see it first hand which will be even more money....
 
#82 ·
Mary, I'm glad you said that. I will capture a video of her in her element, with and without correcting her. Before I do this I just want to say, Anthony did this in the aggression subforum and got bombarded with useless comments that eventually caused him to leave this forum. I hope those "professionals" stay over there or if they choose to view this, then READ THIS COMMENT FIRST that I am allowing it for the sake of further viewing and help. I'll see if my brother will bring his buddy over tonight and I can film some.

Hmmmm maybe I should just show Steve and you the video instead haha I'll send you a link via PM when I work one up. Thanks!
 
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