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Being "civil" and social aggression?

53K views 262 replies 27 participants last post by  GSDElsa 
#1 ·
I'm looking for some clarification on these two things. The more I try to research it myself, the more I am confused.

1.) Is "social aggression" the same thing as being "civil", essentially?


2.) This is something that must be bred for (like good nerves), and cannot be taught, correct?

3.) Is it fair to say that a dog with "social aggression" is a dominant dog in personality, and one that would actually bite the flesh of a person vs a dog that will *only* bite a sleeve?

4.) Can anyone provide an example of a "civil" /"socially aggressive" dog?
 
#3 ·
I've read other threads about this before. What sites did you look at? I'm interested to know what people like Cliff, Carmen, Chris, and others that have Czech dogs (or partly Czech dogs) have to say on this as well. From what I've read, it's not something that can be trained, and PS line dogs all have it to varying degrees. I was told to expect Grim to be very civil.
 
#8 ·
I googled and looked about 1000 different sites. Breeder sites to the PDB and it was all different, lol.

This is a tough topic and you are going to get a lot of different opinions, if anyone decides to post:) To me a dog that is civil is a dog willing to bite a person not just a sleeve. Havoc had a lot of civil agitation done as a young dog and was more than willing to bite the person, didn't care as much about equipment.

As an example of what I "think" social aggression is (and I could very well be way off) but I would say that Havoc also has a degree of "social aggression." He doesn't react to people he just seeks out eye contact with them, with this "ya wanna fight??" kind of look. If people don't get threatening he just moves on but stays aware of their presence. I very much discourage this because I have no need for it but I can see him being very confrontational if it was encourged. One time hiking there was a young woman with her boyfriend who was holding a chihuhua type dog. When she saw my two GSDs she was obviously quite irritated, she went across a dry creek and stood there with her hand on her hip and just GLARED at us. Havoc went to the edge of the creek GLARED back and did kind of a "huff" (which is his "I'm not screwing around" noise.) I easily called him off but he was very ready for a fight with her (so was I lol:)) If I didn't have him to control I would have probably asked WTH her problem was, I guess having a confrontational dog sometimes keeps me out of trouble lol.
That visual totally made me laugh out loud! Thank you for your explanation.

The Components of Strong Working Dog Temperament

From what I understand the term civil means a dog that is not equipment oriented....will bite regardless of not having a sleeve as target.

In real life, it goes the same way.....a civil dog carries some suspicion(it is genetic not trained)
Thanks for the link! I didnt know there were so many "types" of aggression, lol. I thought "pissed off was just pissed off.

Civil dogs bite without equipment. This could be training.
I have seen quite a few Czech dogs that were sharp, quick to aggress, and would bite.

Social aggression is a whole nother ballgame. :)
Couldnt any dog bite without equipment? Or does it have to do with dogs being trained and worked in "prey drive" and not defense/aggression that keeps them from biting the flesh?
 
#4 ·
This is a tough topic and you are going to get a lot of different opinions, if anyone decides to post:) To me a dog that is civil is a dog willing to bite a person not just a sleeve. Havoc had a lot of civil agitation done as a young dog and was more than willing to bite the person, didn't care as much about equipment.

As an example of what I "think" social aggression is (and I could very well be way off) but I would say that Havoc also has a degree of "social aggression." He doesn't react to people he just seeks out eye contact with them, with this "ya wanna fight??" kind of look. If people don't get threatening he just moves on but stays aware of their presence. I very much discourage this because I have no need for it but I can see him being very confrontational if it was encourged. One time hiking there was a young woman with her boyfriend who was holding a chihuhua type dog. When she saw my two GSDs she was obviously quite irritated, she went across a dry creek and stood there with her hand on her hip and just GLARED at us. Havoc went to the edge of the creek GLARED back and did kind of a "huff" (which is his "I'm not screwing around" noise.) I easily called him off but he was very ready for a fight with her (so was I lol:)) If I didn't have him to control I would have probably asked WTH her problem was, I guess having a confrontational dog sometimes keeps me out of trouble lol.
 
#5 · (Edited)
The Components of Strong Working Dog Temperament

From what I understand the term civil means a dog that is not equipment oriented....will bite regardless of not having a sleeve as target.

In real life, it goes the same way.....a civil dog carries some suspicion(it is genetic not trained)
 
#234 ·
Civil dogs bite without equipment. This could be training.
I have seen quite a few Czech dogs that were sharp, quick to aggress, and would bite.


Social aggression is a whole nother ballgame. :)
This is what I have seen as well. And experience with my little one.
 
#10 ·
For a lot of dogs it's about the sleeve. Some people like to do civil work to bring out more aggression and realism, some don't see the point. I know Odin was trained in pretty much all prey, I think he would (and did once) bite the helper but he would have definitely used bite inhibition. It was all a game to him and it was super fun for both of us. I think a dogs ability to be civil will depend on the temperament of the dog but also a lot depends on the training and foundation of a dog. I think you could take most sport dogs and have them bite "for real" in prey. When they are biting to defend themselves its a whole different ball game and if your dog isn't solid you would have some issues stemming from it. Not every dog can handle that type of pressure.

And I do agree social aggression is different than being civil. I think it would make sense to have a dog that can be civil and not socially aggressive but not so much the other way around.
 
#17 ·
"Prey" can be two very different things. I have realized this recently:)

Is the helper working as the prey?
or is the sleeve presented as the prey?

Very different concepts.... both considered working in "prey."
This is how you get sport dogs to bite "for real" the helper acts like prey. You frustrate the dog the same way you would with a sleeve or pillow, only there is no sleeve or pillow just a person. The dog bites out of frustration "prey."
 
#20 ·
This would depend on what you want the dog for. Don't get me wrong I do love Havoc but owning him is a challenge. He is always kinda looking for a fight and I have to watch him like a hawk. I think about what would happen if some dummy decides to challenge back? Stranger things have happened. Havoc would bite someone, not because he is scared or whatever but because he is a dominant a** who thinks he owns the world. I can understand why you would want a SMALL amount of it, like it talks about in that link posted, it is not about a fight/flight thing and the dog is not stressed about it. So it can be useful for bite work, also useful for police dogs I would imagine.

After owning Havoc, I don't want another dog like this. Ya his larger than life personality is cool, but he is sooo much work.
 
#18 ·
There is also the dog that doesn't need to be teased up(eye contact or a facial expression is enough). It'll bite for real just because it can.
This is where handler management comes in when the dog is young/learning because a young dog doesn't always make the right choices!
 
#29 · (Edited)
kristi dog havoc sounds like both a social aggessive and a civil dog in 1 a 2 in 1 deal lol


A dog like is also what onyx was talking about.


Pactchon NO that is not the case you can make any civil dog fight you pretty much but a dog like havoc just sounds like he is LOOKING for a fight he is what my trainer calls an "aggressive civil dog' Or what we are calling a civil dog with social aggression.


You can make a good dog fight a person pretty easy by fighting their handler or fighting them a good decoy can turn on a good dog within seconds. But a dog like the one kristi talks about seems to beg for that kind of challenge from ANYONE> A real piece of work lol These dogs need a very experienced handler and are not common at all.

Jag most gsds have the i can take on the world attitude but the one shes talking about is something else. I am pretty sure ur not going to end up with a dog like this.

x11 i don't think ur dog is like that either tbh. JMHO.
 
#33 ·
kristi dog havoc sounds like both a social aggessive and a civil dog in 1 a 2 in 1 deal lol


A dog like is also what onyx was talking about.


Pactchon NO that is not the case you can make any civil dog fight you pretty much but a dog like havoc just sounds like he is LOOKING for a fight he is what my trainer calls an "aggressive civil dog' Or what we are calling a civil dog with social aggression.


You can make a good dog fight a person pretty easy by fighting their handler or fighting them a good decoy can turn on a good dog within seconds. But a dog like the one kristi talks about seems to beg for that kind of challenge from ANYONE> A real piece of work lol These dogs need a very experienced handler and are not common at all.

Jag most gsds have the i can take on the world attitude but the one shes talking about is something else. I am pretty sure ur not going to end up with a dog like this.

x11 i don't think ur dog is like that either tbh. JMHO.
I have worked with dogs for about 12 years now, mostly pets, ran a daycare for several years etc. I only did schutzhund for 3 years so I don't have a ton of experience with working GSDs, but I can say that I have never met a dog like Havoc. I don't think dogs like him are very common. I am always afraid my posts about him come off as bragging about my bad a** dog, I am not. He is exhausting, and I really don't think the vast majority of people could handle him, nor would they want to.

(I do love him though, and I try really hard to stay positive about him. To me and my husband he can really be such a sweetie, and he does have a lot of good traits.)
 
#35 ·
That would be a good idea, you are close to Nate or Mike's right? Best places to see for yourself
 
#38 ·
Yes in most contexts

Yes

Yes

Jäger is very civil. Katya & Aska are not. Jäger does not like strangers. Jäger will posture back and up the anty to anyone who postures at him. Ill try to get a video of it in an hour or so
 
#42 ·
This definition of "civil" is interesting in that in other contexts the word usually refers to someone who is easygoing and easy to get along with. I didn't used to believe the definition in dog circles when I first heard it applied to an aggressive dog toward people.

Interesting use of the word.

More common uses

"It was hard to be civil when I felt so angry.
She was barely civil to me."
 
#46 ·
These two terms are generally used....and perceptions vary....

I think they overlap.....and look at them more like a verb and a noun...

A dog who has social aggression is - IMO - a confident dominant dog who is balanced in drives, but has the components needed to be civil in work. To show appropriate aggression, to do suit work or hidden sleeve work naturally, a dog who does NOT stand over a sleeve on the ground while the helper cracks a whip or feints at him trying to get his attention.....a dog who spits out a sleeve and goes over it at the helper who has gone inactive while you "run in a circle" with the dog....Csabre did this and we had to teach her to carry the sleeve as she cared nothing for the sleeve and wanted that guy who was threatening her when she bit him.....

Social aggression is a term that to me describes a character trait. Civil is the action and behavior in motion.


Lee
 
#47 ·
That was crystal clear, Lee, thank you! One more question related to this. This is a genetic trait, correct? So would a breeder know what they will produce will carry this trait? Or would it be something that wouldn't be known until the dog is an adult? Can you see anything in pups that would lead you to believe that a dog has this trait?
 
#49 · (Edited)
This dog is said to have produced "social aggression" VA1 Mutz aus der Kückstraße.

Even people with a ton of experience debate whether social aggression exists, and if it does, is it "good?"
Dogs like Mink, SG Mink vom Haus Wittfeld
Boban, Boban von Grauen Monstab
Feivel (and Faro) Feivel Von Den Wannaer Hohen
and '00&'02 WPO CHAMPION Stormfront's Brawnson
are dogs that based on my (limited) knowledge, may be dogs that possessed social aggression.
Some of these dogs have the reputation as being "handler aggressive." But I have also heard some of the stories regarding how they were handled, and if true, it seems no wonder.
Donn Yarnall wrote a super piece a while back regarding how some dogs work much, much, better when treated as a partner rather than as if by a dictator. (paraphrasing!).
 
#55 ·
Exactly the look Ari gives. It must be a hand-me-down from Brawnson.

Ari also, has never lunged or bitten anyone (except during training). The children at the club can get him out of the car and play with him.
But the vibe he gives off, is scary at times and hew has made people walk away on more than one occasion.... with never a bark, growl or hackle..
 
#57 ·
Yeah I've never seen Jäger hackle in training (and we do some very high aggression training).

Is Ari from Brawnson? From what I understand, it is definitely a trait from Brawnson
 
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