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The dark side of IPO Sport

14K views 71 replies 37 participants last post by  Olivers mama 
#1 ·
#39 · (Edited)
why in the **** would you pull and drag a dog on his ears over the field? What's the point? Give me one good reason what the dog learned from that.
I have no intention of getting into that kind of conversation. That was not my point.
The sound was put in there and things were changed and repeated to make it look worse. If it was bad enough for whoever filmed this to turn him in, they should have left it alone and let people judge based on the truth, not using tricks designed to disturb, upset and enrage the people viewing.

Without the edits, it looks bad...I agree ....but with them, he becomes a monster....that's just not right. Not in my opinion. People should be judged based on what actually took place. The truth matters to me and for me, the deception in that video is wrong.

I might totally disagree with how he trains dogs and probably would not like this man. Still, not the point I was making.
 
#42 ·
That's a very weird video. The editing is awful, and the strangest thing about it is that the sound isn't a real dog. I know this because for the past 8 months I can't watch a single thing with dog sounds in it without having my puppy bark. I played it 4 times in the past few days, and every time, not a peep out of him.

So then I got curious, and I googled Patrick Keil IPO, in discussions listing, and opened a few of the German pages, with the pages translated for me. Most of the talk is going on about how inhumane it is, but one person said that he got kicked out not because of the way he trains, but because of something else - some arguement? I had a hard time understanding because the computer is a poor translator, but something seems fishy to me. I think there's a good story behind this video, but we'll probably never get to hear it.
 
#43 · (Edited)
I'll follow and post about it. If there is something, it'll be talked about on the German Forum.

From what I read, he got banned from his club in Juli 2012 because of his trainins methods. They did try to talk to him but he wouldn't change them and so they banned him because of his methods AND arguments.



Stellungnahme zu der Affäre Keil Patrick
"Da wir diese Trainingsmethoden auch nicht dulden
und nach mehrmaliger Aussprache mit dem Hundeführer haben
wir daraus unsere Konsequenzen gezogen. Seit Juli 2012 ist
Herr Keil Patrick wegen seinen Trainingsmethoden und diversen
Meinungsverschiedenheiten nicht mehr in unserem Verein."
http://www.acpge.lu/
 
#44 ·
Please do, I would appreciate it. I'm a very skeptical person and something isn't sitting right with me about this. Even the poor quality - it's hard to see exactly what's going on. There's one point where you can see him whip the back of his ankle, which I guess is telling the dog the position he wants him in, and I guess the swoosh of the tiny whip helps to indicate? IDK, since this sport is way out of my league and this type of training as well. Someone said it, either in this thread or in one that I googled, that he didn't invent this type of training either.
 
#47 ·
Just because the dog takes it and comes back doesn't mean they should have to!

You can kick a dog and it will come right back to you tail wagging.Does that mean he liked it? People pull stupid stunts like this training horses all the time, and the poor horse will keep on trying its heart out. Does not mean the animal is ok with the treatment! Some things will never change..humans can be so cruel!
 
#49 ·
There is no ban of the Pinch Collar throughout the EU. There are countries where both is banned but the EU did not ban the pinch collar throughout the EU. It is still very much legal in Germany.

As for the E-collar. It's legal to sell, buy and keep it but it is illegal to use it.

As for Luxembour, I don't know but I can find out.
 
#51 · (Edited by Moderator)
This guy is clearly a *****. I'm not against whacking a dog with a riding crop or something if you are using it to position and they are being turds (like how you'd use it to pop a horse). I think zahnburg is probably right that with many training devices banned you probably need to get creative for training aides. But this guy --Yikes--to chase your dog around a blind hitting it. And obviously the dog has been whacked one two many times in the wrong place since he's flinching. Clearly he takes a "tool" that can be used for training and misuses it....but I don't think it's any worse or better than someone who misuses any other tool.

But the video itself pisses me off too...and I'm not talking about the handler! If you've got an agenda to out someone, or are just a good citizen trying to expose someone for mistreatment of animals...DO NOT EDIT IT! Let the video speak for itself. CLEARLY this video has been tampered with. That is beyond obvious. There is literally no sound on the video EXCEPT the dog yelping...which sounds as if the dog was in a room with you, not halfway across a training field. Re-playing parts to make it seem like there was more incidents than there really was. Dirty pool....
 
#52 ·
This guy is clearly a *****. I'm not against whacking a dog with a riding crop or something if you are using it to position and they are being turds (like how you'd use it to pop a horse).
So it is OK to hit the dog, but only in the context that you find is acceptable?

Abuse is like pornography, no one can define it but everyone knows it when they see it. Everyone has their own lines that they will or won't cross. So unless we plan on banning hitting dogs with anything at anytime we will always have cases like this one.
 
#53 · (Edited)
I'm shocked by the "Lynch Mob" mentality around here. I watched the video without sound not even thinking about it and it looked like a normal IPO training video. The guy seemed a little heavy handed, but this video is cheap dirt and full of edits.

Also people, get real, if you picked up your 80lb dog by the thin ear it would be horribly deformed. I see in the video what you are talking about, but I'm having huge doubts about if he truly grabbed the ear. Also! Look at the reactions of the faces around! No look for horror, no look of disgust, people look NORMAL. Look at the reactions of the dog, normal. I was watching the other IPO competition video and the whip they use looks like they are also whipping the **** out of the dog.

You want to talk about abuse? Ask our North Carolina Highway Patron how they train their dogs.
 
#55 ·
I'm shocked by the "Lynch Mob" mentality around here. I watched the video without sound not even thinking about it and it looked like a normal IPO training video. The guy seemed a little heavy handed, but this video is cheap dirt and full of edits.

Also people, get real, if you picked up your 80lb dog by the thin ear it would be horribly deformed. I see in the video what you are talking about, but I'm having huge doubts about if he truly grabbed the ear. Also! Look at the reactions of the faces around! No look for horror, no look of disgust, people look NORMAL. Look at the reactions of the dog, normal. I was watching the other IPO competition video and the whip they use looks like they are also whipping the **** out of the dog.

You want to talk about abuse? Ask our North Carolina Highway Patron how they train their dogs. NC Trooper Sgt. Charles Jones Abuses K-9 Partner - YouTube

Just because their are worse cases of abuse out there does not mean what this guy did was ok. If that is how people train their dogs, I don't want them near me. What I think was happening was the dog engaged on the sleeve and then left off and the trainer wanted the dog to keep going so he was trying to incite the dog to a higher level of aggression.

First off, I know nothing about training the protection phase of schutzhund. I always thought that when the dogs are puppies, you play with them with the flirt pole and with a tug, a ball, and a puppy sleeve and encourage their drives, and you do not discourage the biting stuff. Then you make a good game of it, encouraging the dog while increasing the intensity of the helper's part. Tugging with some wrestling. Full body workout.

The idea of the handler whipping a dog to get it to continue to attack never crossed my mind.
 
#54 ·
I just watched this video of him in competition and this doesn't look like an abused relationship between the owner/dog but sure looks like the dog is being whipped as it latches on the arm. I'm sure I could doctor up that video and make an abuse case out of it.

Keil Patrick (LU) with Ombo de la Tani'ere D'or on Vimeo
 
#58 ·
I'm not going to speculate on something I haven't a clue about, though I'm going to say that I can't find fault in the trainer based on the quality and editing of that video. I am more on the side of it wasn't a big deal as nobody in the video seems to show any sort of disgust or reaction to the aledged abuse.

I would never use those tactics on my girl, but I am not ready to lynch the guy either.
 
#66 ·
Gowen, there is much more to it than just the video.

You don't get kicked out of your own club for (let's say) normal training practices. And if the sources are right, he was already under investigation for abuse and cruelty before he entered the competition.

However, he did get kicked out of the competition because of the video. Once that was out, going viral, they had no choice but to kick him out of the competition.

The same thing happened to a couple of professional, high profile jumping riders. They "barred" their horses (hitting the front legs so they lift them higher). A lot of people did it but if you get caught and it's put on the internet, you are out and get disqualified. It's the nature of the beast.
 
#68 ·
l can only guess that you have witnessed or used this sort of thing or worse in the course of whatever training you do, as you say you know why they are doing what they are doing, and do not seem to be disgusted by it, rather you are defending them, or just attacking me. Whatever. Others in the sport and related sports seem to feel different thankfully.
As sad as it is to say it. There is far worse training methods out there. This is just the tip of the iceberg and almost "harmless".
However, the pressure gets bigger and bigger and you can't get caught doing stuff like that anymore. 20 years ago, it wouldn't have been a big of a deal as it is now.
 
#69 · (Edited)
Based on what she said earlier in this thread, I believe Mrs K is relaying information she read on another board. In so doing, she is simply repeating what she read but has no real knowledge of what really happened with this man and his club. Might be be the case but could be wildly different than reported. I have been around dog trainers and clubs enough to know about the politics and vendettas that can take place. That's not to mention the people who report what they have heard with a great deal of glee, even though it doesn't have a heck of a lot to do with reality.

The fact that some people posting here want to look right past the editing, I find somewhat telling. Is the guy a good dog trainer? hmm...maybe not.. but convicting someone on a dog board based on a VERY edited video, tells me something about the people doing that.

Everyone has their agendas and while I think this is certainly not a really good example of dog training, the fact remains that the reactions of the people, and the dog, and the sound, just don't match. Once those facts became obvious, I personally could not go a step further in condemning this man. I have been on juries with people who wanted to convict someone based on their prejudices, what they heard someone say in the elevator, because the police are never wrong, and so on. It is frightening to me what people think is acceptable "proof".
 
#72 ·
:thumbup: Thank You - Thank You - Thank You!

I just read the whole thread. Ignored it initially for a few reasons, not the least of which, an idiot like me had no idea what 'IPO' was & didn't want to look it up. (not a fan of acronyms) After looking it up, came back to watch the video & read.

I've been to a few Sch displays & learned quickly that it is not a sport for everyone. I'm very interested in the sport, just don't have the dog for it @ this time. I've also been around many trainers. I've seen harsh training before that had nothing to do with the sport. But I agree 1000% that an obviously, poorly edited YouTube video should have no place in the ruling of a sanctioning body - for anything.

Done perhaps by a competitor? Quite likely, actually. There are cheaters in all the dog sports. (Years ago, the winningest Irish Setter in AKC conformation was being fed arsenic to get long, beautiful feathering. By the breeder/handler. And everyone knew it. The dog died at the age of 2. Deadly cheaters.) Should the video be taken seriously? Shouldn't. Isn't - by me at least.

BTW - I find it funny that, in Europe, one can legally buy / own a certain collar type - but you can't use it. So what's the point - wall decoration? :crazy:
 
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