German Shepherds Forum banner

Breeding a WL to a SL?

7K views 35 replies 22 participants last post by  PupperLove 
#1 ·
is it bad, good or indifferent?
 
#3 ·
I'm no expert but I'll be brave enough to throw my two cents in.

I think there could be benefits, like Robin mentioned if you have two great dogs and the only "issue" would be one is SL and the other WL then I don't see how it could hurt

On the other hand, they are both bred for entirely different reasons so would most compliment each other, probably not.

Personally I like keeping the lines separate, but if the right dog came along I would definitely be open to the possibility

JMOFWIW
 
#14 ·
On the other hand, they are both bred for entirely different reasons so would most compliment each other, probably not.
Personally I like keeping the lines separate, but if the right dog came along I would definitely be open to the possibility

I don't understand this and probably never will. To see the breed reach a point where people actually expect and accept that the show lines are going to be totally different from the working lines (and vice versa) seems very wrong.
It's one thing to acknowledge the differences on a dog by dog basis, but to ignore the possiblity that a good show line might be the perfect compliment to a good working line because we don't want to see the lines mixed makes no sense on any level. Keeping the lines separate only widens the gap in the breed and diminishes their ability to be total dogs. IMHO
 
#4 ·
"Line purity" is something I have a distaste for. A lot of folks on this board are adamant that show lines have gone to pot and there's no way to save them... except breed with their far superior working lines, lol! If we're improving the breed and it's done by an exceptionally responsible breeder with extensive knowledge of lines (there's a great thread on here I read all the way through about in-depth lines) why would anyone have an issue with doing so? Like Shade says, the probability of two polar opposite lines being appropriately compatible is low, but I see absolutely no reason not to strive to create a stronger GSD just because of 'line purity'. *hides from working-liners*
 
#5 ·
It sounds good unless you wind up with a Frankenstein dog like I did. I loved him but while people speculate about getting the best from both lines, you can also get the worst of both lines. ........... I guess the thing I would want to know is would it actually preserve any genetic diversity within the breed or not?
 
#6 ·
Nancy...that is the same "chance" one takes when doing a close linebreeding......the chance of what is good in the bloodline, and the chance of what is wrong within the bloodline.
I think one *absolutely needs* to bring in new genetics, within bloodlines.
 
#7 ·
Lucy's a show/work mix. Awesome dog and perfectly balanced.

My next one will (hopefully!) be a work/show mix too.

I don't think just anyone and any dog should be mixed. Whoevers doing the breeding really should understand and know what they're doing. Just my $.02
 
#8 · (Edited)
One of the problems I see..... WL people may not "know" the showlines, and SL people may not "know" the working lines.

Example:
An Am line breeder wants to bring in WL to improve "whatever." But that well intentioned Am line breeder may choose a dog from a pedigree known (to WL people) for low thresholds and reactive aggression. Disaster waiting to happen.
I am NOT knocking anyone, btw! Lack of knowledge is fixable..... I work on it everyday.
 
#9 ·
I would agree....however, that stands true for "any" breeding.
One should "know" what each breeding can/should/could produce...before....a breeding is considered.
But I also understand that problems can and do arrise, even with the most "thought out" breedings, being it is the creation of living-breathing creatures.....

*I will do this type of breeding/cross...because I believe, that the need for new genetics is crucial....and I (as a breeder) must make choices now, for the generations to come...just as we have made the choices from past to present.*
JMHO...
 
#11 ·
I have a ASL/EGWL cross and he is a fabulas dog. We are doing obedience and agility and he has some points toward his AKC championship. He is 2 1/2 now, so we will see how far he can go.
 
#12 ·
I wouldn't buy a work/show cross unless it was done by a knowledgeable and experienced breeder. For example kennel von Arlett. Even then, after doing more research, I would probably only buy a 2nd or 3rd generation progeny from a SL/WL cross. I take issue when it is done haphazardly by breeders that don't have the necessary background or knowledge to do these type of pairings, but I suppose that could be said of any dog, breeder, or lines.
 
#13 ·
Jinopo is currently doing a working-showline cross. It has received some less than enthusiastic feedback, but is also a repeat breeding. It is said that this breeding produced "balanced, naturally protective dogs with proper balance of drives. Calm, but protective with good prey drive for any work". The sire is also 1/4 showline and seems to be a magnificent dog. I think breeders that truly understand the bloodlines and genetics of these dogs have a better chance of improving the breed.
 
#18 ·
For me personally, I like the WL dogs the way they are,(especially the lines we tend to go with) so why add SL to it? I could see if I wanted a larger WL dog, or the color was something I wanted to change. We have 6 WL dogs in our house (yes, in the house and yes, together :)) and they are all good house dogs. I'm not sure what the addition of SL to these lines would accomplish.
My experience with SL is less, we have 2 in the house (yes, with the 6 WL dogs) and they make great house dogs as well. The drive on the field is good in one, and so-so in the other.
I think it was Lee (Wolfstraum) who said in another thread that in the horse world, the breeds also have definite splits between the performance and show horses and they are fine with it. Working Quarter Horses (that may compete in barrel racing or the like) are pretty different than the QH you see in the Halter classes. The horse people seem to have no big issue with it.
I don't know that you will ever get a Golden Middle within the breed at this point, I think most breeders would be aiming for the Golden Middle within their type.
 
#19 ·
Interesting that this thread came up....

I have been trying to find a new puppy and was/am really undecided whether I want to try a SL or go back to another WL dog.

Just yesterday, I noticed that one of the local breeders, who is well known for their WL dogs, has a litter on the ground with a father who is also the father of a litter on the ground from a well known local SL breeder.

I've emailed both, asking which one is the cross and why, but so far neither has responded.
 
#22 ·
Sorry, that wasn't clear was it.

Two different litters, one a SL litter and one a WL litter as represented by the breeders, have the same father.

If the the father is a SL dog, the WL litter is the cross. If the father is a WL dog, then the SL litter is the cross.

Right?
 
#27 ·
The female that WL kennel used in the breeding to Solo is also a SL dog. They must have gotten the bitch somehow and decided to produce a SL litter.
We had a similar situation a few years back, we had friends who we imported a very nice SL female for. (she was SchH1, KkL1, good hips/elbows and great temperament). They really wanted a litter out of her, but were nervous about the whole thing. They talked us into helping them so I found the sire (one of Yuliya's males, Yash) and I took the female for the breeding. About a week before the pups were due, we moved the dam to our house. She had the litter here and we raised the litter and helped sell the pups. We got a male pup in exchange and my husband got listed as the breeder. So while we aren't "SL" breeders, we did have a SL litter here :).
 
#29 ·
My answer would be indifferent. It is not something that interests me nor something I would do, but to each his own. :)
 
#30 ·
It may seem like a pretty obvious statement, but I think to get the best results by combining the two is going to take years of breeding, through careful selection, trial and error to actually achieve what one would HOPE for consistantly.

So no, I'm not opposed to it. But I think somebody just needs to consistantly stick with it and not expect immediate results. :)
 
#31 ·
In the late 90s, Karl Fuller bred his Jassie Kirschental to 3 well known WLs. Jassie would be considered a SL though Kirschental is not your typical SL kennel. I heard that the progeny did well as search detection dogs or were bred to produce such kind of dogs. Perhaps Carmspack can weigh in on why the pedigree might have worked to produce such dogs.
Progeny list for V Jassie vom Kirschental - German Shepherd Dog
 
#32 ·
I am not against it in principle. If a show-line breeder wanted to inject more drive or better pasterns or some other trait and could not find a suitable candidate within show lines for what he was looking for, he might try a total outcross to a working-line dog.

The selection of the working line dog would need to be made with attention to all the details.

The first generation would probably be all over the place, with very little uniformity. The breeder would have to choose one or more prospects to be bred back into the type that he is striving for (show-lines) and line breed. For this, the breeder would have to let the puppies grow out some before deciding on which dogs to use to breed back in. The second generation might be an improvement in whatever the trait, and in uniformity, but no guaranty. Again, the puppies would need to grow out some before choosing the best dogs, and it would probably be years before it would be evident what besides that trait had entered into his lines.

I think for the most part, many breeders do not have the patience, persistence, or the space to do such a venture right.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top