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(Sire)American Shepherd?

23K views 132 replies 30 participants last post by  PatchonGSD 
#1 ·
Dog Mammal Vertebrate Dog breed Canidae


Dog Mammal Vertebrate Dog breed Canidae
Hi Everyone, I purchased my dog from a breeder in up north michigan and im curious what everyone thinks my dogs father is. . Well he is a GSD but is he american? He doesnt seem to relate to any other pics of american alsatian dogs so im just stuck. I hope someone can help. Here is a pic.
I also want to know about the female. The breeder told me she was Czech and German. Im basically asking peoples opinions on these dogs.
 
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#61 ·
My American Show Lines are not lazy, dumb, or slow.
 
#66 ·
Actually this dog is a mix of lines. Just going off of names, there is definitely German lines in there. Only one of the GRANDPARENTS is OFA'd in the pedigree database and even less of the great grandparents are. Just because a dog can do Schutzhund doesn't mean it should be bred.
 
#68 ·
Okay to everyone that got offended.. why would i try to offend a line of GSD that i own myself? That doesnt sound right to me... I was just stating what i heard about the line. And the reason i want to breed him so bad is because of his potential. I will not breed him without any titles just because i "Think he can bite" i want his potential to be passed on. I want those people who call our american lines DUMB SMALL and LAZY to see what potential a american line has. and to the person who said he is a mix of things.. how far back is the german? im curious because i dont seem to understand how to figure out how far back the german is.
 
#70 ·
Just by names alone...anytime you see vom and von in the pedigree it tends to be a German line. American dog's have a different naming system (as you can tell by the sire of your dog) and although sometimes working line breeders in America call their dogs with that standard, it's pretty rare from what I've seen. So, I'm not saying that the dogs are actually German, just that your dog seems to have German lines.
 
#69 ·
Anita, I also have AM show lines and have actually argued with GSL breeders that that is what they are, they are NOT typical, so many people see teh most winning or pictured adn think well that is what they all are, I always suggest there are great examples out there, in all lines, don't listen to the "experts" that are no more expert than anyone...Good is everywhere, and I always encourage people to look at my facebook pics since I post tons, and I love my dogs so tons of pics, Trudy CAlvert, in Ontario, Ca
 
#78 ·
why would you hide genetics for herding? they are perfect for schutzhund

Noooo, we arent hiding his herding sorry i didnt mean to write that. We are trying to hide his prey drive and build up his bite drive. He used to only want to bite what was on the stink that moved fast.. But his problem now is that he doesnt hold the bite toy he bites and pull if you pull, if you dont pull he jumps on you with it in his mouth but when u let him have it he drops it... and i dont know what to do.
 
#79 ·
Yeah...prey drive is not herding genetics...its prey drive. It's actually the opposite of herding genetics. And german standards are xxx vom kennel name. American are Kennel names' such and such and such.

Here's the issue with studding your dog. There are hundreds of others that are just as good or better, and have a much nicer pedigree. Why not just try to get Sch1 or 3 and have fun with it? Why does the goal have to be to have him bred? You don't think I believe my dog is better than yours? But I wouldn't stud him because of that.

There are clearly a mix of lines in your boy, so I'm not sure who would even want to breed with him. The American show people wouldn't touch him because he wouldn't have any conformation titles on him, and the working people would like to see more hip scores and have their own biases on what lines they work with.

I'm just giving you warnings, to me it seems like you don't know enough about YOUR dog and the breed lines as a whole to breed/stud. And this isn't a knock on you, I don't know that stuff either, but I think I know a little more than you and I wouldn't stud my dog.
 
#81 ·
Yeah...prey drive is not herding genetics...its prey drive. It's actually the opposite of herding genetics. And german standards are xxx vom kennel name. American are Kennel names' such and such and such.

Here's the issue with studding your dog. There are hundreds of others that are just as good or better, and have a much nicer pedigree. Why not just try to get Sch1 or 3 and have fun with it? Why does the goal have to be to have him bred? You don't think I believe my dog is better than yours? But I wouldn't stud him because of that.

There are clearly a mix of lines in your boy, so I'm not sure who would even want to breed with him. The American show people wouldn't touch him because he wouldn't have any conformation titles on him, and the working people would like to see more hip scores and have their own biases on what lines they work with.

I'm just giving you warnings, to me it seems like you don't know enough about YOUR dog and the breed lines as a whole to breed/stud. And this isn't a knock on you, I don't knowp that stuff either, but I think I know a little more than you and I wouldn't stud my dog.
I already explained why I want him bred. I want his potential to be spread. Yea your dog OS probably better then mine and so are most of the peoples on here. But some people don't like breeding or don't want there dogs bred but that doesn't mean that everyone won't breed their dog ... I have about three people with females who want to breed their female to mine... Will I breed him to them ..? No because they don't seem to be responsible they want to breed by looks not by background.. and that's not what I'm looking for.. and if I don't find a female then hey he won't be bred I don't understand why people make such a big deal ...
 
#83 ·
The problem with a dog like this is that phenotype (what you see) does not always reflect the full genotype (the genetic makeup of the dog). Because every animal has 2 sets of genes for every single trait you can think of, they have one gene that is expressed and one that is not, or they might express a blend. Therefore, what they pass onto their offspring is not necessarily what you see in the dog. That's why it's important to know the pedigree behind the dog before breeding, not just the dog itself. That's why it's important to have generations of hip scores, not just hip scores on the dog itself, and know about the temperament and health of the parents, grand-parents, and great-grandparents, not just the dog itself. How many of us know someone who doesn't much resemble their parents, but looks/acts a lot like a grandparent, aunt or uncle? Genetically, what you see in the dog is not always what you get in the offspring.
 
#84 ·
The problem with a dog like this is that phenotype (what you see) does not always reflect the full genotype (the genetic makeup of the dog). Because every animal has 2 sets of genes for every single trait you can think of, they have one gene that is expressed and one that is not, or they might express a blend. Therefore, what they pass onto their offspring is not necessarily what you see in the dog. That's why it's important to know the pedigree behind the dog before breeding, not just the dog itself. That's why it's important to have generations of hip scores, not just hip scores on the dog itself, and know about the temperament and health of the parents, grand-parents, and great-grandparents, not just the dog itself. How many of us know someone who doesn't much resemble their parents, but looks/acts a lot like a grandparent, aunt or uncle? Genetically, what you see in the dog is not always what you get in the offspring.
This has to be the best, single post on breeding...Ever.
 
#89 ·
Remember that it is not so much the title, but what you learn about the dog during titling. You may find your dog balks when not on his home field. This shows the dog has mental weaknesses that should not be bred. Or your dog will kick butt no matter the field, night or day, rain or shine. You could learn that training him was extremely difficult so maybe you should not be adding more tough-to-train dogs. He could appear to be completely solid and sound except show weakness when on the sleeve.

Enough of that. Let's see some photos of your dog working!
 
#90 ·
I'm not bashing the dog, but this is not a pure ASL. The problem with mixing lines is that as much as you want to help the line, you're actually hurting it. I belong to a club full of ASL. We train for AKC events and don't do any Schutzhund training. Do I think my dog is better than theirs? Absolutely...he has more drive, his obedience is much better, he just looks like he wants to do things rather than just does them. But many of the dogs are also in the show ring, or have been bred from AKC conformation champions, those people do not ever want to mix their lines to get more drive out of them. Why? Because there are no buyers for those dogs.

There are buyers that want drive, that want a dog that looks like it can work, a dog that comes from Sch3 lines. Then there are buyers for the conformation ring, the ones that know their dog has a chance of winning in conformation. There are no buyers for a mix of these dogs...they won't be as good as all working lines and they won't conform for the people that want to show them. I know most of us believe the breed should still be tested on the field, but its a different world now, and the people looking at working dogs wouldn't give this pedigree a second breath.
 
#95 ·
I'm not bashing the dog, but this is not a pure ASL. The problem with mixing lines is that as much as you want to help the line, you're actually hurting it. I belong to a club full of ASL. We train for AKC events and don't do any Schutzhund training. Do I think my dog is better than theirs? Absolutely...he has more drive, his obedience is much better, he just looks like he wants to do things rather than just does them. But many of the dogs are also in the show ring, or have been bred from AKC conformation champions, those people do not ever want to mix their lines to get more drive out of them. Why? Because there are no buyers for those dogs.

There are buyers that want drive, that want a dog that looks like it can work, a dog that comes from Sch3 lines. Then there are buyers for the conformation ring, the ones that know their dog has a chance of winning in conformation. There are no buyers for a mix of these dogs...they won't be as good as all working lines and they won't conform for the people that want to show them. I know most of us believe the breed should still be tested on the field, but its a different world now, and the people looking at working dogs wouldn't give this pedigree a second breath.

Alright so with that said what if i DONT breed him, i am planning on showing him with the ukc soon... and i KNOW i have a good chance of wining... But what if i DO breed him to a german dog. Would the puppies have a good drive? say my dog does Schh3 and so does the mother?
 
#94 ·
#103 ·
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I personally would not purchase a dog sired by your boy. My first dog (current) is a mix of working lines. I didn't know much when I got him but I love him to death. My next one, will be from lines that I know and have researched. If I were to get a puppy from a pedigree like your dogs, it would have to be through a rescue and I'm not even as hardcore about working the dogs as most people. I just want a dog for AKC obedience, rally, agility, and whatever other fun stuff we can come up with.
 
#105 ·
Totally understand. I mean i still have like a year and half to think about breeding or not and when i got my dog i was clueless too.. i see the word GSD puppy close by and im like OHH i want that one.. and a year later you find all this stuff that could have been avoided if i drove like 2 hours longer.
 
#104 · (Edited)
I don't know much about SchH training, but I don't think it'd be a very good idea to train the protection portion at home, unless you had someone to act as a helper. Protection training probably wouldn't do much good if you're training him to attack the one he's supposed to be protecting.
That's just my opinion - I have no experience with SchH or training for it.

I should also add, that I don't think many breeders do a breeding with the expectation of all the puppies growing up to title in conformation and/or sport. Even if you put the world's 2 best dogs together, you will get puppies that are suited for being pets and not so much the show ring or the SchH ring.

I think you'll have a hard time finding someone with a nice bitch to breed him with. Personally, if I had a bitch with an excellent pedigree, titles, health checks, etc., I wouldn't consider breeding her to your male.
 
#106 ·
I don't know much about SchH training, but I don't think it'd be a very good idea to train the protection portion at home, unless you had someone to act as a helper. Protection training probably wouldn't do much good if you're training him to attack the one he's supposed to be protecting.
That's just my opinion - I have no experience with SchH or training for it.

Haha right totally agree with your last sentence.. he is totally fine biting a toy out of my hand .... because i know that when i hold the leaash and say pessoff he will protect me!
 
#107 ·
Generally not a good idea to do bitework in your front yard for the whole neighborhood to watch.....

And a VERY bad idea to agitate your own dog unless you're 100% sure what you're doing. During the session in the photos, can you say with complete certainty that he was working in prey or was he working in defense? Or neither?
 
#113 ·
There is A LOT more to breeding than just putting two dogs together. Read soem threads here on breeding, go read some books on breeding, and talk to actual responsible breeders. Breeding is NOT for everyone or every dog.

Your dog comes from an unknown background with a lot of unknowns in regards to health, temperament etc. You don't have to breed your dog! Its wonderful you are training him. But there is no reason to breed your dog. Just train him and enjoy him. You don't have to breed him.

If you are seriously interested in becoming a breeder later on in the future learn about GSDs, learn about the different lines, temperament, health, training, join a club.
 
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