German Shepherds Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Artica German Shepherds

28K views 128 replies 31 participants last post by  Chris Wild 
#1 ·
Hi All,

I have a white german shepherd from Artica Kennels in Canada. I am considering breeding my dog and have heard that Artica Kennel is no longer in business. My dog was born on Oct. 20, 2005. Her parent sire is Artica's Corona and parent dam is Artica's Tango. I would like to find out more about my dogs siblings amd would like to find a white stud dog from the Artica line. Do any of you own a white Artica German Shepherd?

Meika's Mom
 
#75 ·
I'd really be interested to hear how lmlloyd things breeding dogs should be chosen. If not hip and elbow X-rays, health tests, and complementary pedigrees with performance and temperament titles behind them, and not dogs like his own Artica dog without the aforementioned tests. . . . . then what?
 
#76 ·
If you really must know, as much as I love dogs, I'm not so sure we need an entire industry, clubs, and certification agencies for breeding them, regardless of the criteria you use. There seem to be millions of them just hanging out at shelters, which would lead me to believe we have a bit of a surplus.

I'm not saying no one should ever breed a dog, but from what I've seen at most breeders, and at most shelters, I don't really see much in all of those "health tests, and complementary pedigrees with performance and temperament titles" that add up to any special guarantee the dog won't end up just another mutt at the shelter.

Oh, and as a side note, Artica dogs had certifications going back several generations claiming there were no hip problems. Didn't turn out to be very useful in the case of my dog, but they had the OFA certifications.
 
#78 ·
Sheez, where is Cliff and Carmen when you need them. It is clear that you have a huge misunderstanding of the whole breeding process. Health testing and titles are important, yes, but if you don't choose a breeder that knows and UNDERSTANDS what they're putting together on paper, then it doesn't matter how many good ratings you see in your dogs pedigree. Genetics is about knowledge and titles and health testing help to stack the odds in that favor. I have a male now who's sire competed at the USA Sieger in 2011 and his dam had titles galore and several previous litters with sound pups. However, my breeder didn't bring the genetics into consideration when she matched these two, and as a result, my pup has serious health issues.

Maybe if you spent more time on this board you would come to understand that these people that put so much hard work into health testing and titling their dogs are not doing it just for club bragging rights.

Why don't you read this thread? A Lot of knowledgeable breeders chimed in on this one and there is a lot to be learned that may change your perception. Many have to read it twice as the information and knowledge can overwhelm you.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html
 
#86 ·
Just took a break from Dr Who and started reading this thread.......OH so MANY things to which I want to respond!!!!

First off - while there are certain points with which I agree regarding the fallacy of dog shows being a good breeding test etc- my conclusions are ABSOLUTELY opposite!!!! I also feel that there are so called "reputable" breeders who will breed poor tempered animals because their evaluation of some other factor - color, gait, expression, angulation or even in working - extreme drive - whatever - is of much higher priority and that breeders goal is to win in the venue of chosen sport....sorry- but I have known several ASL breeders who took that route - one using a very pathetic fearful female - one I felt so sorry for because of her fear - but they overlooked it because of her extreme angulation and sidegait.

Secondly - as far as linebreeding.....if you choose to linebreed - you have to know the pros and cons of the animal being linebred upon!!!!!!! People look at pedigrees and say it has to be good because the dog is bred on Sieger or Ex Sel or BSP dog 3, 5, 5 - 4,4,5 - but they cannot say what good and bad traits are being brought forward - or they know Dog C is known for GoodXXXX and don't want to hear that Bad ZZZZ is equally as possible.

Also, backmassing is another issue most people ignore.....if it is off the first 5 generations, they don't want to think about it.....find someone objective to talk about Lance of Fran Jo - or Jeck Noricum.....health issues, hip problems....but there is not a good statistical analysis possible to quote on these - just antedoctal information and observation.

A kennel which for generations has only their own captive genetic program with no evidence of testing for health temperament,workability etc....frankly, that is a commercial pet kennel....JMHO.....sure, there will be nice pets but it is really a crap shoot of what you will produce that way....you are not testing for even minimal standards of temperament when you have a dozen (+/-) dogs on site and you just produce litters for the pet market.

Line breeding is almost unavoidable in today's world - I personally have striven to have and combine certain lines - with the goal of eventually doing a line breeding on a specific dog.....for that purpose I purchased a female puppy at 8 weeks from Germany who is a granddaughter of that dog. I know his negatives, and his positives.....the biggest negative is dog aggression - which is not a plus, but with knowledge, something that can be dealt with in training, and other than direct progeny, I am not seeing that in dozen or more 2nd and 3rd generation dogs from him.....THAT is the kind of information and personal experience your breeder should have of pedigrees and breedings BEFORE they do a mating.

Lee





1
 
#91 ·
Everything I want to say has already been stated.


OP, Please heed the advice and don't breed your pet quality dog. I'm tired of cleaning up the mess and would like my social life back. Shelters are killing purebred GSDs with the personality you described and more every single day. If you're not breeding responsibly, you have no idea what will happen to the pups you bring into this world and the pups those pups produce, etc, etc.





 
#94 · (Edited)
Again...it appears you are only discussing Showlines. You are aware that there are several different lines of the German Shepherd right? Are you aware that there are many, many German Shepherd breeders that don't touch the lines of genetics you are talking about? Are you aware that generally, showline breeders and Workingline breeders are basically producing dogs with goals on differing sides of the spectrum from each other, and most Workingline breeders could care less how their dogs perform under a showline judge because it'll never happen? It doesn't appear so, as the person that wrote that article doesn't appear to know either. It is great to have knowledge about genetics, but don't you think you should also have knowledge about the breed itself before you attempt to loop an entire breed into one category??
 
#96 ·
You keep saying that. Would you then like to give me the name of a breeder who follows Captain Max von Stephanitz practice of reintroducing non-German Shepherds hearding breeds to the line, to minimize genetic defects? To my knowledge, I have yet to find an American breeder who proudly advertises that their dogs, working or not, have non-German Shepherd blood in them.
 
#105 ·
This is a great example when puppy placement go wrong. Breeders makes their decision based what the buyers want, but mostly the buyers don't really know what they are getting into.

I have a 3.5 yr old son, he is taught to respect the dog and cat. Koda will never hurt him but what do I know, Koda is a dog, so both are supervised at all times together.
 
#108 ·
But see, that's part of my problem. When did German Shepherds change so much that someone who grew up around them, "didn't know what they were getting into?"

I have to stress, I've known the father since we went to high school together, and the only reason he didn't have a German Shepherd already, was he wanted to wait until the kids were old enough to take care of it. This wasn't some guy who went from a terrier to a German Shepherd, this was a guy who's whole life could be measured in how many German Shepherds he had owned. This is exactly the sort of "the breeder knows what they're doing, it us always the family who is doing something wrong" attitude that I find disturbing.

Maybe you are right, maybe it is never safe to leave a a modern American German Shepherd alone with a child. If that is true, that is a sadder statement about the degeneration of the breed than anything I've said. When I was growing up in Houston, German Shepherds were practically furry babysitters. I never had one as a kid, because my mom would never let me have a dog that big, but all my friends with yards had German Shepherds, and no one I ever met, thought of them as a breed you should never leave unsupervised with a child.
 
#107 ·
This topic should really be in its own thread, because the members that could pipe in on the whole genetics and breed itself discussion and offer some valuable input are not going to look here because of the title of the thread.

Lmlloyd - perhaps you should start a new thread that addresses your concerns and viewpoint on where the breed is at and heading? I think it would bring for a more balanced discussion if more of our breeding and pedigree gurus were involved?
 
#114 ·
Honestly, I think the whole genetics thing has run its course. I get it, breeders know more about how to get the most out of a pairing that geneticists do, and if anything goes wrong, it is probably the fault of the person who bought the dog, because breeders are infallible. To say anything else is rude, and if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

Pretty clear on where the people on this forum stand now.
 
#110 ·
Maybe you are right, maybe it is never safe to leave a a modern American German Shepherd alone with a child.
I don't think Josie/Zeus meant it wasn't safe to leave a modern Am./Ger Shepherd alone with a child. I think she was saying she doesn't leave her toddler unsupervised and most probably because a dog, of ANY breed and ANY size, can attack a child.
 
#112 ·
OP, Please heed the advice and don't breed your pet quality dog. I'm tired of cleaning up the mess and would like my social life back. Shelters are killing purebred GSDs with the personality you described and more every single day. If you're not breeding responsibly, you have no idea what will happen to the pups you bring into this world and the pups those pups produce, etc, etc.
:thumbsup:
We're getting another in today. Has been bred, or at least nursed a litter and then dumped, emaciated from the sounds of it, and probably under 1yr. of age.


Dogs and kids should never be left alone together. Period. Less because of the state of the modern GSD, and more because of the state of the modern child.
Amen to that!!!! Were all parents to have the "sense" our parents did while we were growing up, I'd remove the "no kids under 8-12" on all of our rescued dogs!
 
#115 ·
Wow! Ok, if that's what you took out of it. So be it. Perhaps if everyone had said, you're SOOO right Lmlloyd, please tell us more, then this would have been worthy of continuing. I will agree with you on one thing, this conversation is dead and a waste of time. On to better topics...
 
#116 · (Edited)
I see no reason to believe that other breeds could not be introduced to the line (as was the case at the start of the breed), to enhance and strengthen the desired traits, while undoing some of the damage excessive inbreeding has caused.
Such as??? What breed would you introduce and to fix what problem?
 
#124 ·
I'll answer for Lakl...she has never shown sneaky, underhanded, tendencies so in my opinion, she was trying to learn more and have more opinions viewpoints in what is a very interesting topic. I'm sure she was thinking of Carmen and Cliff specifically, who both could add very well thought out, intelligent, information that YOU would benefit from.
 
#127 ·
The problem with that, is that I really have heard it all before. It's not like I've never spoken to a breeder before. It's not like I don't know what their position is. I even read a good portion of the thread it was recommended I read, though it seems to be unbelievable to Lakl that anyone could read that thread, and still have their own opinion that differs.

Arguing with a breeder about the basic concept of breed purity, is like trying to get a Christian to renounce Christ, and convert to Judaism. Their entire world view is centered around the idea that breed purity is a desirable trait. All that will happen, is you will end up mired in the minutia of dogma. It doesn't go anywhere, and no one learns anything, because when it really comes down to it, it is a faith-based position, leaning on tradition, and adopting the parts of modern science that support their world view, while rejecting, ignoring, or being impossibly hyper-critical of anything that causes problems with their world view.

There are entire websites devoted to this argument, and there are many scholarly papers by both geneticists and breeders addressing the subject. There is nothing any breeder in any forum can say, to get around the simple scientific evidence that biodiversity is advantageous to a species. Any argument that tries to support improving the health of a species, by limiting biodiversity, will necessarily include rationalizations and a priori assumptions that have to be taken on faith. That isn't some random opinion I just happen to have, that is the current state of a modern understanding of genetics. If you maintain a small gene pool, and practice selective breeding only within that limited gene pool, you are practicing damage control, not improving the species. That is what genetics has to say about a lack of biodiversity.

Arguing with breeders about breed purity, is no more productive or beneficial to me, than it would be to go to some audiophile website, and argue about $10,000 stereo cables that supposedly improve sound, or some free energy website to argue about perpetual motion machines, or any other group of people who earnestly and wholeheartedly believe in something that is scientifically questionable, to the point of being highly unlikely to be true. I don't have to hear someone's subjective arguments, to look over the research, see the experiments, and read the results. That, to me, speaks a lot louder than someone's passionate defense that they love their dogs, and have been doing this for 30 years, with what they self-assess as good results.

What is a worthwhile conversation, and all I was doing initially, is to talk to the person who isn't sure if they should buy that $10,000 audio cable, and let them know that there is no scientific basis for a special cable making something sound better. Talking to the people who already bought the cable, is a waste of time, because their $10,000 investment, will cause them to skew their perspective.
 
#126 ·
food for thought: dogs are living creatures with feelings, and long life spans. Not grain or food animals - where failed genetic experiments can be destroyed much more easily...what happens to all those pups born of genetic experiments???? Breeding dogs is as much an art as a science. I do feel, or maybe agree is a better word, too many people with too little knowledge, and just downright careless people, produce the majority of dogs and cats born and euthanized in this country, and it is APPALLING and heartbreaking. But breeding solely for genetic diversity by mixing breeds is not the answer - it would just make more mutts with no homes.

Lee
 
#129 ·
There are some excellent points of discussion here, but I think it's time to close this one particular thread. Partly because it is a revival of a year old thread and the current discussion has absolutely nothing to do with the original thread or the title. And partly because people are having some trouble playing nice.

I do think this would make an interesting discussion in the genetics forum, as a separate thread with an accurate heading. If people would like to continue to discuss the topic, and can do so in a civil manner, then please start a new thread.

-Admin
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top