I keep hearing these three names over and over again. . . "This dog is heavily bred on Ferro and Troll," or "This dog has a lot of Mink."
But when I look at pedigrees there are sometimes several different dogs in a 5-generation pedigree named Ferro or Troll. Fewer named Mink, but there's still more than one.
Actually there is a 3rd common Troll, Troll Korbelbach.
But 99.99999% of the time when people say "Troll" they mean Troll vd BN. And if they don't, they'll usually specify one of the others because it's otherwise generally assumed to be Troll vd BN.
Ok, so if I took some $200 AKC GSD off Craigslist. Max vom Backyard, son of Mike vom Backyard and Missy vom Backyard and traced Max's pedigree far enough, would I eventually get to Fero, Troll, Mink, and Greif? I guess I'm trying to figure out how prevalent these dogs are in the breed.
If Max vom Backyard came from West German Workinglines...I would say that these dogs are in a good number of pedigrees.
However these dogs are from the 80s...And while that is probably still genetically significant on today's workingline dogs...probably not very important if Max vom Backyard is from a longer line of American bred showdogs. In the 80s the camps were established so you didn't see much crossover between the workingline dogs and say the showlines- you'd have to go further back to see a more uniform Shepherd and be able to pinpoint a more universal common ancestor.
It used to Be that dogs were sometimes mentioned as "Fero free" for breeding purposes. Not that he was bad, but if desiring to outcross one might have to look for such. He was in a number of west working breedings. My male is 5-5 on him.
Now it is almost impossible to find a working line pedigree without Fero in it, at least with the Western European lines. I feel there is very real concern over genetic bottlenecking in these lines due to the overuse of Fero in many cases. Not that Fero was necessarily bad, but to see the same dog in practically every pedigree, often multiple times, is worrisome.
Very true, Chris, I see it more and more--a dog will have 4-6 lines that go back to Fero. Say, Nick, Yoschy, Aly, Troll, and Gotthilf vd Kine --all in the same pedigree.
I do see Mink, often on the bottom-side in combo with Fero on top, but far less often than I used to, and it seems he is not often linebred on.
Leerburg used the Mink line dogs alot, with a fair amount of linebreeding as well. That's where I've seen it the most. Several of my dogs are pretty heavily linebred on Mink 5,5 - 5,5. My other dog is 3-3 on Fero. I agree it can be difficult to find a West German pedigree without those dogs in there.
I've seen a number of WG/Czech/DDR pairings that have been successful.
I think that is why some people have mixed Czech and DDR lines with West lines in past 15 years. Of course we all know the Czech dogs are nervy and have chewy grips and aren't great for the almighty Sch. Or we can continue on our prey way.
so mix czech & ddr and you will get nervy chewy grips and no prey drive or work ethic in a lobo like package with added raccoon eye make-up, the perfect pets, will sell like hot cakes
Wow gee thanks Cliff so glad you told us that-I was thinking some day my next gsd might have some czech lines-but hearing this well beagle puppies sure are cute
Once the czech and DDR lines have all vanished into the mix, where would breeders then go for an outcross that would (a) balance out the traits they have in their stock, and (b) avoid concentrating their dogs' genetic heritage again into relationships that are too close for continued mental and physical health? Asking 'cause I'm a learner.
Saw a great Czech dog on the van den Heuvel website linked to another thread--great for my taste--called Navarro. Solid, reliable, steady, sweet, and trained in protection. Safe around children. You would have liked him, I think, Holland!
Great thread. My boy goes back on Timmy and Troll via Javir Talka Marda. I can't keep the names and lines straight.
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