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Why is police dog training trying to be kept secretive?

26K views 143 replies 48 participants last post by  pache11 
#1 ·
I was always wondering ...

Unless you are K9 police officer or possibly press, you are not allowed to observe a police dog training sessions. I already tried. At least that's how it is here in the state of NY. Why is this? Are the cops scared that criminals are going to pick up on their "secret" training strategies or random john doe's are going to produce cop dogs which go out and bite the public. Does police dog training really have to be kept a secret? How come retired K9 cops are allowed to pursue a career in dog training and share their "secrets" with the public.

What am I overlooking here. Your thoughts are appreciated.
 
#2 ·
The criminals will find out about the favored rewards and then carry them...tugs, balls, treats.

JK:)

I would have loved to be a K9 LEO handler, wish I wasn't so old now.
 
#3 ·
I don't know,

Maybe liability

Maybe they do not want just anyone to know the strengths and weaknesses of individual dogs

Maybe they do not want people to see how dogs are trained to track or trail so that people could work on ways to avoid being tracked.

Maybe the individuals have enough to be thinking about and doing that they do not want to be critiqued by the public while doing it.

maybe after training with weed, they all get together at the end of class and have a little party???
 
#4 ·
I know how they train K9's and it's not pretty. It's why the dogs are wired and hyper, and they don't live very long.
 
#8 ·
Agree with Selzer, you can't make a blanket statement like this and categorize trainers and dogs as all the same.

I watch RCMP dog handlers work their dogs on a weekly basis - some have joined our Schutzhund club and work with our main helper in maintaining and improving the patrol dogs' tracking and fight skills.

They focus on developing a strong relationship with their dogs as their life depends on it. One member brings his young son with him, and we all stand around and watch and cheer on the dog when he brings down the bad guy in training.

As to your question about why? I don't know about the police in your area and their reasoning - I doubt that there is some deep nasty, unspeakable secret going on behind closed doors though - unless one is looking for yet another conspiracy theory. :)
 
#5 ·
Hang on, there are as many ways to train police dogs as there are police departments. Many, many departments train their own dogs. I think they, for the most part, choose dogs that are high energy and high drive.

Some of them are probably terribly hard on the dogs, to the point of being abusive.

I think that the rest are basically trying to prove those dogs inside and out. It is imperitive that police dogs are under control and perform on command and at the same time stay alert and protect. The rest of us can get away with a 78 or 95% performance. Police dogs have to be on the top of their game all the time.

I would expect that would mean rigorous training, with very little room to move either way.

The dog that came to our class for a demo was nine years and still active. I think that ensuring that those dogs are 100% all the time, might make them live longer than they might otherwise.
 
#6 ·
I'm sure there are many ways, but I know for a fact that the big departments around here use the same methods, and it is very harsh. I come from a law enforcement family and know several K9 officers.
 
#7 ·
The Royal Canadian Mounted Police (our federal police service) has there training facility about 40 minutes from where I love and they do training and skills demonstrations every week during the summer. You can see their training grounds from the highway, so I don't think they're super secretive about their training. From what I have heard (my breeder knows many of the trainers there) they run a good program and turn out really good police dogs. From what I understand, their dogs are the first response SAR dogs for the entire country, others get a call if needed. My brothers, however, are with our local police dept and their dogs are not only terrible at actual police work - they sound insane. It sounds like the dogs are just as likely to bite their handlers as a suspect (and then only if they can see the suspect because they can't track! They sound exactly like the dogs wolfiesmom is describing, and these are not dogs I would ever want to encounter.
 
#11 ·
I work in LE and I will tell you that some of the training is not conventional is still the old way of choking out your dog for disipline issues. Honestly if departments are still using this tactic for training which most are, would you want the public seeing you choke out5 your dog. NO. I remember a instence when a k9 dog bite the handler at a demonstration and they handler couldnt do anything because the public was there. I dont thinks its keeping secrets on training techniques as much as how harsh it can be.
 
#16 ·
This is what I am talking about. They pick the dog up by it's throat and choke it to the point of it almost losing consciousness when it needs a correction. Yes, they still do it.
 
#13 ·
When I dug up a local K9 officer on Facebook and asked him about the training, public observation blabla, he responded that the public is not allowed for "OBVIOUS REASONS"
I wonder what he meant with "obvious reasons", silly me, I should have asked.
 
#17 ·
From what I have heard and seen the training of these dogs can be quite brutal. I know a guy at the dog park that ended up with a k9 the didn't make it through training. He said when he got the dog it had no fur on its neck where it had been choked repeatedly with a choke chain.

I also saw how the military handlers treat the dogs. In fact the handler I was working with went so far as to choke the #%$& out of my dog with a choke collar he fashioned from her leash. His reasoning for doing it- it was to make her submit and be obedient.
 
#19 ·
I also saw how the military handlers treat the dogs. In fact the handler I was working with went so far as to choke the #%$& out of my dog with a choke collar he fashioned from her leash. His reasoning for doing it- it was to make her submit and be obedient.

sad ...that is soo 60's, Koehler method type training ... Are these methods really still necessary to train a good police or military dog?
 
#20 ·
I think that it is nice to think about police dogs, especially GSDs, the way we think about our pets. But their handlers have to have a special sort of mindset. They HAVE to be able to put that dog in danger -- front of the line type thing in situations, and KNOW that even with bullets flying and whatever chaos that dog will do what he is trained to do.

They have to be aware that the idiots out there might try to sabotage or kill their dog, and be ready to flush the dog if they do. but they also have to go into this whole thing knowing the dog can drop out or be killed at any time.

I think that might make you a little more callous about the whole thing.

And also, lots of cops are x-military. Military wants to get you home alive, not worried so much about how bad you feel in training, they want you to know how to do your job when the shtuff is hitting the fan. And I can see them treating dogs with a similar mentality.

But I would not suggest that all of them are the same.

One fellow was telling me that the dog is not allowed any toys. He has one toy, and that toy he can play with ONLY when he does something really good. They do this starting from a puppy. Another told me her son was training a police dog, and the dog was chewing holes in the walls and they cannot correct it for this, because they might need for the dog to do just that down the line. And another guy told my dad that they switch handlers when they are training police dogs every month or so, so the dog does not get so attached to just one handler.

I think that there are different methods, and different levels of bonding with specific officers, depending on what the dogs are used for and how they are trained and how they are kept.
 
#23 ·
I know a k9 officer. He continuously says his dog is NOT a pet and is not treated as such. The dog NEVER comes in the house. He stays outside in a kennel when not at work and he never gets treats or plays games. The officer says that when the dog catches a criminal his reward is he can bite the person and then he gets a hot dog (I don't think he was getting when he told me this either).
 
#24 ·
From what my brothers have said, the K-9 officers in their dept do choke out their dogs on a regular basis, as well as other archaic forms of discipline, it makes me sick when the talk about the dogs. Plus it turns out really crappy dogs who are indiscriminately aggressive but can't do anything else - apparently the only thing they're good for is if they have a line of sight on the suspect and he's running and the police all freeze. However, I do enjoy watching the RCMP dogs work - any I have seen have done a great job and both them and the handler look like they're having a good time doing it. The difference between the two is night and day!
 
#25 ·
Wolfiesmom, these RCMP officer aren't coming to our club for public demonstrations. They come on their own time to improve their own handling and training skills. They come on weekday nights and stand in the rain and get soaked with the rest of us while they wait their turn on the field with the helper while the helper works our club dogs. There is no "public" there, only us club members.

Acutally, the helpers/trainers at OUR club are the ones who got to police training events to put on dog-handling seminars. Our main helper is away doing a quarry course for the RCMP. (teaching people how to run and hide and act like a bad guy for the dogs to find and bring down).

It just so happens that from my office window, I overlook some grassy fields that we, our club, use for tracking a lot - and I can see the weekly training sessions the RCMP have with their dogs out there - tracking, learning to handle a young dog, having some poor sap dress up in a bite suit and told to start running. Very entertaining, yes! But this is real training, not a demonstration.
 
#26 ·
One thing to remember is that Police dogs are in fact not pets. They have a job and departments pay big money for them. Once everything is said and done (Purchase, train and send dog/handler to training courses) it can cost well around $20,000 so this being said it is a very big investment for departments.

As for the departments where I live th K9's stay with ONE handler their whole career and usually once the are retired the handlers purchase the dog for $1 and they live the rest of their lives with the handlers.

Most of the retired k9's are very good dogs once retired. Great with kids, quiet and calm.
 
#61 ·
One thing to remember is that Police dogs are in fact not pets. They have a job and departments pay big money for them. Once everything is said and done (Purchase, train and send dog/handler to training courses) it can cost well around $20,000 so this being said it is a very big investment for departments.

As for the departments where I live th K9's stay with ONE handler their whole career and usually once the are retired the handlers purchase the dog for $1 and they live the rest of their lives with the handlers.

Most of the retired k9's are very good dogs once retired. Great with kids, quiet and calm.
My friend has w k9 officers near her and there poilce dogs are their pets, and a person around the block from is a k9 officer and his dog is his pet.
 
#27 ·
My/Titon's trainer IS the trainer for Fort Carson Army Base, Peterson Air Force Base, El Paso County and CSPD K9 units. We can watch if we wanted to but I choose to leave them to their training out of respect for what they do. There is no secret to what a police K9 dog can do that our dogs can't do with training.

But I will say this though, what they do to train the drug dogs can make you cringe. You thought ball drive was crazy. Try drugs...
 
#28 ·
My DH asked a cop the next town over about tempermrent testing for ShcH. And he said to tie my dog down to a table and poke her with a stick till she comes after me. And if she didn't she wasent any good and to git rid of her and find another dog :eek: he said he had a booklet with all kinds of tests or training. We could barrow anytime. I'm tempted to then burn it so it can never be used again :angryfire :
 
#29 ·
LEO training is like that. I know that most tactical teams don't like the idea of their training becoming public (close quarters combat/MOUT), but there's really nothing unique or new about it. I guess I can understand why they'd be concerned that bad guys would know their SOP, but really the most important aspect of a breach is surprise and violence of action. I'd guess that K9 training is really no different. They just don't want the public familiar with their SOP.
 
#30 ·
I used to be a Police Sergeant and I still work in this field, but not as a Police Officer. We never, ever, disclose our security vulnerabilities (crime if we do).

When asked to observe training, generally it's not going to be allowed because they don't know the spectator or have the priority or need to learn about the spectator (background investigation). Liability is another reason they won't allow spectators. If you are not there you can't get hurt by whatever happens.

If your neighbor is a K-9 Officer or you have some kind of relationship they will likely tell you a lot about the training.
 
#32 ·
I have also trained with many K9 officers over the years, both participating in their actual K9 training and with them visiting SchH clubs (which was done for *training* not some PR scam) and some of the claims made in this thread really have my mind boggled at where people get these ideas. Sure, there may be a few cases of that sort of thing here and there, but it is far from common, much less the norm.

Thank goodness David saw this thread and responded with a dose of reality. And good posts by Lucia too based on some actual first hand experience.

Given the ignorance, ridiculous theories and negative propaganda being passed around in this thread as "fact" I really DO think it obvious why K9 departments aren't inviting every Tom, **** and Harry out to watch their training.
 
#33 ·
uh...you can't watch police training in general around here, K9 or otherwise.

Wolfiesmom - there are a lot of ways to train dogs, many that you likely wouldn't agree with. Doesn't make it right or wrong, just makes it different. The dogs here certainly aren't abused, and they definitely don't lead shorter lives. They are retired and most here live our their lives in the homes of their handlers.
 
#36 ·
I didn't say anything was right or wrong. I was just saying that the average citizen, and especially the animal rights groups would find the choke method of training repulsive and abusive. If they open that part of the training up the the public, there would be an outcry from some of these groups. This is certainly not the only reason for not showing the training methods, but part of it. The K9 dogs that I have known , the longest lived one was 10. Your average GSD pet has a life expectancy of 12 to 14 years. These dogs are under high stress on the job, just like their human counterparts. Human officers suffer illnesses and many die younger due what the amount of job stress does to the body.
 
#34 ·
I will tell you where I got my info. I can see that different countries and different states employ different training methods. I am only saying what I have encountered, or been told in my area. I come from a law enforcement family. My father, 4 of my uncles, and my hubby are all police officers or retired police officers. We have a lot of family friends and one of my uncles that are or were K9 officers. The breeder where I got my dog, Chief, was an active K9 officer, as well as breeding dogs for show, one of his dogs won top dog in the USA many years ago. He also bred dogs for pets, and bred dogs for the police dept. My hubby and the breeder ,whom I mentioned but passed away in an accident, both work for a dept of 2500 officers. My dad and uncles all worked for smaller departments. One of my uncles worked K9 for the military. My grandfather breeds tracking hounds. This is where I get my information from. Just to let everyone know that I am not just making things up as I go along, or passing something along from my mechanics' cousin's friends mother in law who knows a K9 officer. Dfrost, I am glad to hear that in your dept the dogs are treated and trained well. I am not making a blanket statement of all dog units, just what I have learned and seen here over the years.
 
#48 ·
I will tell you where I got my info. I can see that different countries and different states employ different training methods. I am only saying what I have encountered, or been told in my area. I come from a law enforcement family... I am not making a blanket statement of all dog units, just what I have learned and seen here over the years.
Your first statement was this
I know how they train K9's and it's not pretty. It's why the dogs are wired and hyper, and they don't live very long.

Thats pretty blanket. You did not specify "where I live, this is my experience".

I do agree there are some terrible K9 programs out there. Some of these people have no idea how to train, and the dogs should never be on the street, but to put all of them in the same category is wrong.

Castlemaid and the others who have mentioned the RCMP are exactly right. It is NOT for show, it is how they trained. They have one of the most respected programs around, and their training is sought after across the country and the world. If you knew me, you would know that I don't compliment the RCMP lightly, it down right kills me. But I do give credit where credit is due. I have seen ALL stages of their training, their demonstrations are not public relations. Pretty much any department in Canada bases their training off the RCMP.

As for the original question, I don't know. Here, you can find the unit training every Wednesday behind the main station, out at the airport and in random neighborhoods. We have had visitors observe, videotape and do regular demostrations. No hiding, no secrecy.
 
#35 ·
It must be a very, very small dept if they are getting their dogs as puppies from a private breeder.

That could possibly explain where they get their ideas on training. However, you say several times "people in your family" and etc, but in reality how many direct family members do you talk to on a regular basis that are actual K9 handlers. Either way, one family who likely passes down methods to one another isn't an accurate picture of how K9's in this country are trained.
 
#38 ·
I didn't say that they are getting the dogs as pups. I said I know a K9 officer that was also a breeder, that bred dogs that police depts used. This breeder has since passed away. Idk if you consider a dept of 2500 officers small or not.
 
#40 ·
Unless he is breeding, raising, and putting the preliminary training on the dogs it's hard to believe the dept is buying dogs from him. That is very rare. Most buy green dogs; puppies are a crapshoot and they don''t have the time and money or inclination to invest in a bunch of pups that may not make it.

There are a lot of breeders that say they sell dogs as K9's and for the most part, they are lying.
 
#41 ·
I agree, but he was a K9 officer, a Major, in said dept. He sold these dogs when they were older, and I don't know the word for it, but they were trained somewhat. Is that what you are calling a green dog? Anyways in 1990, he was getting $10,000 for each dog that the dept bought from him. This is all I know about how his dogs got to be K9's. I can't call him and ask him anymore because he was killed in an accident a couple years ago.
 
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