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Von, vom and naming your kennel.

153K views 81 replies 45 participants last post by  wolfstraum 
#1 ·
I am a little confused about the use of "vom" and "von" in registered names of dogs. I was under the impression that "vom" means of and "von" means the, the first in relation to a specific kennel or bloodline. I think I am wrong about the meaning of von. Can someone please explain the two terms for me? It's greatly appreciated!

Also, when it comes to choosing a name for a working-line kennel, is it smart to go strictly German or is it okay to go with something English? I see some strictly German names and some kennels that use a format such as: Dogname vom Summerview.

Opinions? Thoughts? Experiences?

Thank you!
 
#27 ·
I don't know that the word "Hord" means anything in German. If it does, then it depends on the gender of Hord (NOT the gender of the actual person, but the gender that the language assigns to the noun). If the word Hord does not exist in the German language then I would just look at other words like it.

ETA: You could just make it Hordhaus ("haus" being a word for house/estate/kennel) and it would be "vom".
 
#30 ·
If you look at a translator (from German to English or vise)you will see that Von is "Of" and Vom is "From" with no use of male or female. It's only when a masculine or feminine name proceeds the Vom/Von. For example if I named my kennel Vom Reigle Kennel it will translate to "Reigle from Kennel" or Von Reigle Kennel would be "Reigle of Kennel". Everyone here just has to decide for them self's how to use Vom/Von. I myself would choose Vom, and I think everyone here is correct in using these words as for sexuality of the owner of the kennel.
 
#31 ·
There's more to it than just deciding. Von/vom is based on the gender of the noun in the prepositional phrase and if the noun has no assigned gender (because it's not a word in the German alphabet) a native speaker can probably tell you that one just sounds better given the flow of the language. The noun genders are not arbitrarily assigned. Even having only studied the language for four years using von/vom is fairly natural without knowing every possibly noun in the vocabulary and memorizing the gender.

Von and Vom are the same thing. Usually in the context of the prepositional phrase, of or from can be used interchangeably. It's not that one means of and one means from. Even in English you can often use them interchangeably.
 
#32 ·
Naming our puppy

We're trying to come up with a full name for our puppy's AKC registration. My understanding is that the name can contain pretty much anything? Would someone who speaks fluent German give me an opinion on whether or not this is written correctly?
"Blitzen der Kuhne Vom Haus Giuglia"

'Giuglia' is a modification of our last name..unsure whether or not to use that quite yet. Our other option is using the kennel name from the the Sire+Dam. Is that more common to use? Or do we just pick a word we like and use its translation??:confused:

Thanks for any and all opinions! :)
 
#33 · (Edited)
Because our dogs weren't bred in Germany, even though their lineage is traceable directly to Germany, we opted to not offer "German" names to our pups, from the kennel standpoint.
Our pups are "Penley's blah, blah, blah."
"Penley" being our farm, which is a combination of our last name (my married name) and my grandfather's last name, who owned and started the farm we run now, and then the owners get to pick the rest of the name. They've been very creative, to say the least.
For example, Penley's Premiere Zee, Penley's Silver Lining and Penley's Gold Plated Impression. And then we did have one pup get named a combination; his name is something like Penley's Mack von whatever.
Of course those are their registered names, and they each have their regular call name. Some are a part of the registered name, some are completely different.

I know it's customary for GSD's to be given German names, but we figured our dogs are American bred, and so, to us, it just made more sense to give them an American name. Of course, looking back through their pedigree's, you'll find German name, after German name, all referring to either a kennel or foundation dog. It's pretty interesting when you start breaking it down and researching it.
 
#34 ·
Now I have a question here.... I have a breeder in mind for when I'm ready for a pup. They give their dogs call names, and their parents are AKC registered, but are not "German" registered with von OR vom.

One day down the road when life has smoothed out and I know I can do it properly, I would like to breed a litter of pups. I don't want to get into an argument about breeding more dogs when so many die in shelters...I know what characteristics I'd like to breed in a litter, and if I don't find the right dogs, I will simply have mine spayed/neutered.

But... is there anything that says I have to be a breeder, or use the breeder's name when naming my dog?

Let's say the breeder's name is Smith. And the dog is Fido. Would the dog "have" to be registered with von/vom Smith as its name, or could I name it whatever I want? Does the "kennel" have to be a breeding kennel to name the dog with von/vom? If I wanted to name the dog after my and my hubby's name (we'll say Smith, also, I guess)... could the dog be named Fido von Smith? or could I name it Fido von Whatever-I-Want ?

Just to clarify... do I have to own a sire/dam to use von/vom?
 
#35 ·
If your breeder does not name the pups first and register them and does not require using a specified kennel name in the contract you can name your puppy what ever you want. Is that what you are asking?
 
#36 ·
First...I apologize for how haughty that post came out. I was overtired and trying to think, and had just run a couple ambulance calls back to back. >.>

Lisa, that is exactly what I was asking. I know I can name the pup anything...but to give the pup a kennel name, do I have to have an actual breeding kennel? Or can I call the pup vom/von Anything without owning a sire/dam and actual breeding kennel? Is there any "rule" about that? (You know... the pup naming police or something? hehe)
 
#39 ·
I know I can name the pup anything...but to give the pup a kennel name, do I have to have an actual breeding kennel? Or can I call the pup vom/von Anything without owning a sire/dam and actual breeding kennel? Is there any "rule" about that? (You know... the pup naming police or something? hehe)
Short answer: yes, you can name your pup anything - but it would be considered inappropriate in the GSD world for you to come up with a von/vom name and register a pup that was bred by someone else in a von/vom kennel name of your own. You did not breed the pup, so it should NOT have YOUR kennel name, if you are following the German naming conventions.

When you BREED your first litter, then the pups can be registered with your own von/vom kennel name.
 
#37 ·
There are no actual rules enforced by law, but there are naming conventions.

You can buy sire and dam from different kennels, and they come with their von/vom kennel name, as registered by the previous owner. There are AKC/North American naming conventions, and German SV naming convention, and they are somewhat different in how the kennel names are built and what is considered appropriate naming of registered dogs. In AKC naming conventions, it is considered appropriate to include part of the names of the parents and/or the names of the kennels the parents came from, and/or your components of your own name and/or the name of the previous owners.

In the German naming convention, you will need to come up with your own unique kennel name, that may or may not have von/vom in it, and it is considered very bad form to use the kennel name of another breeder when naming your pups. I know this is all very confusing, so I'll give you some examples. I'll do it in two parts so that the posts don't get too long.

German naming convention:

In the German naming convention you buy female from kennel von Drooly, named Limpy von Drooly (as the owners of the Drooly kennel bred the female and registered her in their own kennel name), and you buy a male from another kennel. Lets say the other kennel is called Bitey Kennels . The owners of Bitey kennel bred the male you bought, and they have already registered the male in their own kennel name as Squinty vom Bitey.

If you are following the German naming convention, you will have to come up with a unique kennel name, and use your own unique kennel name when registering the pups YOU bred (regardless of where the parents came from). So lets say your kennel is called Barksalot Kennels. Your first litter will be the "A" litter, and all the pups will be registered with a name that starts with "A". You can come up with puppy names yourself and register them, or your puppy buyers can pick an "A" name that they like and suggest it for their puppy. So you can have Achy von Barksalot, Action von Barksalot, Andy von Barksalot, and so on. You CAN name your kennel after yourself, and call it Smith kennels, and register the dogs as Achy von Smith, Action von Smith, and so on.

The second litter you would breed at Barksalot/Smith kennels would be the B litter, the third the C litter and so on. It doesn't matter if the A, B, and C litters all have different parents acquired from different kennels, the main thing is that you own the females and bred them and registered them in your kennel name because that is where the puppies come from - your kennel. This way when people see a registered name published somewhere - OFA results, IPO results, Agility Trial results, they know which kennel the dog came from and from what litter.

For example Gryffon came from the G litter from Wildhaus kennels. His Dam is Denali vom Wildhaus, from the Wildhaus D litter that was help back for breeding. The alphabet naming convention continues on from litters bred BY THE KENNEL - not by the female used. So the Dam is from the fourth litter bred by Wildhaus. When Della (Denali) had her first litter, it was the 7th litter bred by Wildhaus, and thus the G litter. The breeder chose the puppy names and registered the litter. Owners of future pups are of course free to use any call name they wish, it does not have to be the registered name. I like Gryffon and kept it. Another member on the board here, Onyx'girl has a littermate of Gryffon, with the registered name of Gideon vom Wildhaus, but she chose the call name of Karlo for her dog, and that is what we all know him by.

There are no hard rules with AKC about using von/vom as a registered name. However, if using the German von/vom naming convention, it is considered very bad form in the GSD world to "steal" a kennel name, i.e. use the kennel name of an existing kennel as part of your kennel name.

Some people do it innocently enough because they don't understand the German convention, and some people do it on purpose, wanting to take advantage of prestige associated by well-established, well known kennel. So for example, you may see a pedigree with a dog with a kennel name of Truehaus (an actual kennel). You may just love the name and decide to use it when you register your pups - since there are no laws and regulations on that, you can. You could register a puppy as Honesty vom Truehaus (because you think this would be a cool name) , and, AKC would accept it, but people knowledgeable in the breed would look at the pedigree, and know that Honesty is NOT a puppy from the Truehaus H litter, and would consider it 'stealing' a kennel name.
 
#38 ·
AKC style naming conventions.

With AKC style naming convention, there is a lot more variation in how breeders and puppy owners choose registered names. I'm more familiar with the German SV style, so maybe others can fill in more details that I might have missed.

In AKC/CKC (Canadian) naming conventions, different breeders have different 'themes' they like to see in coming up with registered names for the puppies they have bred. I think the conventions are also different in different breeds - but some breeders will want their kennel name worked into the pups' name somehow, or part of the names of the dam and sire.

Litters do not normally follow the Alphabet like in the German Convention, but they often follow a naming theme - the theme could be something like race cars, or Christmas, or Pagan Magic, for example. The the breeder may want their own name worked in, and/or the name or kennel name of the dam and sire, for example - that is on reason you see such loooooong AKC style names.

Some breeders will have some specific requirements on puppy naming, some will have only one request (keep to the litter theme), and others will make suggestions but allow the new owner to pick any registered name they want.

I can never come up with good AKC style names, LOL - just don't seem to be creative enough! But for example, let's say that the Breeder is Smith, who owns ThunderBolt kennels, just bred Midnight Lightning Bella to Winter Thunderstorm Dan for a new litter, and they decide to make it Sport Car Themed litter - than the registered name could be something like:

Castlemaid's Midnight Thunderstorm Maserati Smith III (which I think turned out to be a pretty cool name!).

German SV naming conventions are pretty cut and dry - AKC style naming conventions are many and varied - some people work a von/vom name into an AKC style name, but I don't really get the point of combining the two conventions - just causes confusion when the whole idea of a naming convention is to have some kind of system that gives you some info in where the dog came from.
 
#40 ·
Wow... that's a lot of information to take in! I truly appreciate all of it. The pup I get will have registration papers (I think CKC), but I think I'm given the "right" to name the pup anything I want. I'll have to double check with the breeder once I get the pup.

The last litter she had were all cars - Ford, Chevy, etc. I thought it was cute, though if I ever breed a litter, I think I would like to follow the German convention, and start with an "A" litter. I'll have to discuss all of that with hubby, but for now... I'm just waiting on my pup.
 
#41 ·
Which CKC? Canadian or Continental?
 
#42 ·
Is that CKC the Canadian Kennel Club, or the Continental Kennel Club? The former is a legitimate registry, but the latter is a fake registry for BYBs and puppy mills. AKC (American Kennel Club) and UKC (United Kennel Club) are also legitimate registries. Find out which your breeder is using, because if they are using Continental Kennel Club, it's a sure sign of poor breeding practices. Especially if you are looking to breed in the future--you want to start out the right way.
 
#43 ·
Continental. How is it a fake registry? Is there a way to get a non-AKC registered pup and have it registered through AKC? Do they have any sort of way to prove your pup is purebred?

Now as far as naming kennels goes.... I think (at least for the moment), I'm learning toward giving it my grandma's maiden name of Daul. I thought calling it Daulhaus. Would the pups be voN Daulhaus, or voM Daulhaus, and does that even make sense whatsoever?
 
#44 ·
No. the CKC (Continental) will "register" any dog as a purebred with only a photo. It is used by BYBs and puppy mills who cannot register their dogs with a legitimate registry, either because they have no pedigree, the breeder has been banned from the AKC, or what have you. Any breeder who uses the Continental Kennel Club is a breeder I would stay far, far away from. Gigantic red flag there. Keep looking. If you want to breed eventually, you need to stick with legitimate registries. AKC and other real registries will not accept CKC papers.
 
#45 ·
It would be voM Daulhaus because 'haus' is a feminin noun (like in French),

CKC(Continental) is not a reputable registry. We have had people here post their CKC registration papers for feedback, and turns out the pedigree was fake - easy to spot that the pedigree was fabricated if you know of some of the dogs listed, and colour genetics.

You would think that if you are going to lie and fabricate a pedigree, you would at least half-try to make it believable by not coming up with impossible genetic colour combinations.

I know from your other threads that you are very interested in breeding and training police service dogs - my suggestion to you is that a dog suitable for your goals is not going to come from a breeder that has CKC registered dogs - find a breeder that breeds for the same goals you want your dog to achieve, and has a TRACK RECORD of producing, placing and TRAINING dogs that end up as active working dogs.

From the sound of it, you are not even familiar of the difference between the different lines and their different traits and temperaments. Your first puppy should be a learning/practice puppy. Not a breeding prospect. Once you've raised your pup and trained it and titled it for everything under the sun (for you to gain experience and to learn about drives and working traits), THEN you will be in a much better position to find the right pup and think about breeding for your end goals.
 
#51 ·
It would be voM Daulhaus because 'haus' is a feminin noun (like in French),
In German, "das Haus" is neutral and therefore uses "vom." All masculine and neutral nouns in German use "vom." For a feminine noun, German uses "von." See post #10 in this thread for a description of this.

The gender is based on the noun, not the person or dog involved. English speakers will NEVER be able to correctly guess the gender of a noun, you must simply memorize them. There is no logical scheme to the categorization.
 
#46 · (Edited)
That's good to know. I've looked into the CKC because I wasn't sure about it. The breeder I am looking at has AKC and CKC registered dogs. I figured she is a reputable breeder and sells her dogs all over the US and hasn't had any issues with them. Hmm. Good to know. Thank you!


Lucia; I was looking at one of my dad's pups for a "training" pup. His dogs are not registered, etc. The bitch has beautiful coloring, disposition, and confirmation; the stud is a white shepherd and I'm not a huge fan of his confirmation, but he's intelligent and gentle. I figured my first pup would be something to learn with. Find out what methods work, what will produce a willing partner, and what trainers I like, and who to stay away from. You're correct - I would love to breed police and/or service dogs, though I know I can't do it without the right genetics, traits, and training. I'm not looking to find a bitch to put out litters and call them K9s.

I'm not completely familiar with the different lines, no. I'm looking into all sorts of things so I can be prepared when I'm ready for a pup of my own. I've been scouring the forums here to find out all the information I can, and adventuring off to the wonderful world of Google when I'm not sure of something; or I ask ridiculous questions here so I understand what I need to know for the future. I truly appreciate all the help I've gotten here!
 
#47 ·
Puppy mills sell their dogs all over. All it takes is a convincing web site. Here is a website from a breeder who breeds BASED ON PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with dogs - not based on fancy pedigrees and great web marketing:
German Shepherd Breeder | Police Dogs | Schutzhund | Washington USA | BC Canada

Also sells and places pups all over the US and Canada - the difference is that K9 departments come to her for dogs because of knowledge of k9 dogs, and dogs she sells actually end up WORKING as k9. Anyone can make a claim on their website that their dogs come from police dogs (somewhere back in the pedigree), or that their dogs are suitable as working dogs, but unless people are lining up to get working dogs from the breeder because they have proven that they deliver what they advertise, then it is just talk.

Don't go for just the talk. Go for the walk. And breeding 20 litters and having one working dog in the bunch, that is not walking the walk, that is a fluke. :)

More on finding a breeder, and what to look for and avoid:
(Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )

(German Shepherd Breeders, by Wildhaus Kennels)

How to tell a good breeder website from a bad one | Ruffly Speaking

Here is another breeder that walks the walks - don't need to brag all that much, their own personal accomplishments and the accomplishements of the dogs they have bred talk for themselves. The website makes my eyes hurt, LOL, but this is a breeder that knows working dogs, and their knowledge comes from years and years and years of working with dogs in many different venues -

http://www.diehlspolicek9training.com/main.asp
 
#48 ·
I know what puppy mills are, though I figured this breeder was good, as her pups do go all over. I don't know where they end up, working-wise, or if they are just pets. I know my husband's dog came from them, and he is one of the best dogs I have ever had.

Guess I have more research ahead of me. That's ok...I still have to convince hubby I need a pup of my own so he can resume training his OWN dog. ;)

I will definitely check out the links provided and go through the AKC website a little better. Maybe I can find a good pup there. (Now where was my Santa wish-list again?)
 
#49 ·
The breeder may have some wonderful dogs, and the pups could very well be wonderful, healthy companions, but for your foundation bitch, you need to be more choosy - you have to know the difference between lines, get a dog from a breeder that has a track record for producing working traits, and the dogs are properly registered so that potential health issues can be tracked and avoided.

Once you start REALLY getting into training for actual working titles, like IPO or PSA or PP, you will get a solid understanding of drives, hardness, bidability, mental balance, good vs bad aggression, thresholds, reactivity, etc. You will see that not any dog has it what it takes, and that "IT" has to be bred for. It doesn't come just from training. Some lines have been bred for "IT" for generations, and that is the background you want in your breeding dog (again, one reason to have a dog with proper AKC registration, where you can trust the pedigree).
 
#50 ·
Yeah, her dogs are amazing. They are family raised and socialized. They are around a variety of animals, situations, strangers...a little of everything. Their dogs are solid animals and fantastic companions. Bullet, I think, with proper training, could be a great narcotic dog. He's not much for bitework (he was injured before training for it, and hubby doesn't think he'd hold up to the physical strain. I think it's crap - Bullet runs and jumps and crawls and gets stomped by horses and doesn't STOP). I digress.

I like the working European line. They have a nice look to them, and as their name implies, they're for working. I guess I don't really want a show dog that will have less capability for performing.

Are you Wildhaus kennel, or do you just have a dog from them? I have looked into them numerous times and have been scared by the cost of the pup, though I know a great dog with bloodlines isn't going to be cheap. The more I look into them, the more I'm absolutely in love. I want to find the best possible animal for what I'd like to train for. Now to convince hubby that I absolutely need a great dog to start with so I can build on training later on down the road.

(Oh man, I can see this argument already. Me: Hey, hubby...what do you think of.....
hubby: NO. )
 
#52 ·
If you use the language long enough I think there are patterns in speech, how the sounds and the words flow. Some just sound more natural than others. I don't think they are completely random. I have correctly guessed many times.
 
#53 ·
Liesje,

I agree that once a person has enough experience with German you can start to guess, there are some patterns that emerge. But is was never systematic from the start. For example, look at silverware. You have fork (die Gabel), spoon (der Loeffel) and knife (das Messer). There is no reason for the assignment of gender for these items. You must simply memorize these. And so it goes throughout the language.
 
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